From: "Deana Holmes" <mirele@xmission.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 23:29:20 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: [FACTS] Mountain Meadows Massacre
Message-ID: <199610031213.GAA16253@mail.xmission.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On  3 Oct 96 at 8:58, attila wrote:

> AFTER THIS POST, ALL RELIGION MUST GO OFF THE LIST! see banner below

attila, if you wouldn't post propaganda from the Church, then I 
*might* agree with you.  But you can't do that and expect those of us 
who know better to keep quiet.

<snip Dmitri Vulis nonsense>

> Now, concerning the completely ignorant, erroneus, and  slanderous
> comment of Dimitri, the facts will follow the usual disclaimer:
> 
>     ***************************************************************
>         I am neither an authority of nor a representative of "The Church
>     of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints" of which our current
>     living Prophet, President Gordon B. Hinckley, is the sole authority
>     to this world.

Love your CYA statement, dude.  It's terribly doubtful that Hinckley 
knows the details of Mountain Meadows, or that he would want to 
discuss them, if he did.

>  I do not speak for the Church, nor am I a recognized
>     historian and/or spokesman for the Church.  Any opinions stated
>     herein are my viewpoints as discerned from my studies of religion,
>     in particular the historical aspect of the Church, and I accept all
>     responsibilty for same.

Very good.  You know, of course, that if you say the wrong thing in 
public, that your fate will be that of D. Michael Quinn, the 
excommunicated Mormon historian, who lost his Church membership 
because he would not stop telling unpleasant truths about the 
Church's early history.  Just so the other c-punks know that speaking 
truth has consequences.

     ******************************************************************* 
>     If some of the list wish to either ask questions RESPONSIBLY or
>     conduct a shared learning experience of the Mormon religious,
>     community, and work ethic, please drop me a personal note, and
>     I will both answer reasonable questions, and serve as moderator
>     of a list if there is sufficient interest.  I think the libertarian faction 
>     in particular might be both surprised and *stunned* by many of 
>     the actual conditions in Utah versus preconceived views.
>     *******************************************************************

If anyone wants a more jaundiced view of Utah, please drop me a line. 
I can be a Utah cheerleader if I want (there are many good things 
about living here) but the fact of the matter is that we live in a 
Church State.  I resent the fact that the dominant religion seems to 
want to tell *everyone* here how to live their lives.

> 
> now, back to our regularly scheduled programming <g>
> 
> the following is a compilation of information which is as 
> reasonable a representation of the foul deed as I could assemble.

<snip>

I would suggest two books, both by historian Juanita Brooks:

"The Mountain Meadows Massacre"
"John D. Lee"

Before the days of Boyd K. Packer, historians weren't excommunicated. 
Mrs. Brooks' punishment for writing these two books was to be shunned 
in her southern Utah community.  But they remain *the* sources on 
Mountain Meadows and the general attitude of the people at the time.

I notice that attila didn't mention these sources.

Deana (who doesn't really approve of the pap that passes for history 
in orthodox LDS circles)

Deana M. Holmes
April 1996 poster child for clueless $cientology litigiousness
alt.religion.scientology archivist since 2/95
mirele@xmission.com