From: "George A. Stathis" <hyperlex@hol.gr>
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:05:31 -0800 (PST)
To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: Re: Censor John Gilmore -- EFF is a disgrace!
Message-ID: <199611150403.CAA10921@prometheus.hol.gr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 08:30 ðì 14/11/1996 -0500, aga wrote:
>> * Dave says "Notice that the net is compared to a home or private club." 
>> Wrong. I never compared the Net to such. However, a mailing list run on a
>> computer in someone's home with his own cash is very similar to a private
>> club.  There are private speech restrictions on the Net. Gated communities
>> exist.  Try to join the "lawprofs" mailing list. You can't; you're not
>> (and quite obviously anything but) a law professor. Censorship? Not quite. 
>> 
>None of that analogy is applicable to the cyberpunks list.
>When a list gets as big as that, it it no longer to be considered
>a "mailing-list" but it is a _public_ forum.  The whole problem
>here is the abuse of power by both the EFF and John Gilmore.

Indeed. But it's not only a question of 'size'. Perhaps less people might
take part, but it would still be a _public_ list, just as an "open meeting"
announced to take place in a _private_ house, is still an open meeting.

Does the fact that the _building_ used by the meeting is private and
possibly donated for this purpose make the meeting less public (than
explicitly announced)?

This analogy (meeting = mailing-list, building-owner=list-owner) is
_quite_ exact, as a matter of fact, and it's not at all a 'party'.










>> By the way, if you haven't figured it out yet, Mr. "Freedom Knight of
>> Usenet,"  a private mailing list is NOT Usenet. Get a clue. 
>
>Wrong!  The cyberpunks mailing list is PUBLIC property and should
>NOT be controlled by John Gilmore!  This just goes to show the real
>facist censorship motives that the EFF has behind it.

Yep. Morevover, ANOTHER _sense_ in which the cypherpunks list is
PUBLIC is the following:  Posters are the _owners_ of their _ideas_.
So the messages in the list are the (intellectual) property of the
people who wrote them; not the list-owner's. The false analogy here
is between a mailing list and a newspaper; But the newspaper (1) is
sold in ALL public places (2) is dependent on money and works (in the
end) for the financial best interests of its owner, and (3) is not
interactive, i.e. the readers are not at all _also_ writers in it.

We have to clear these things up, dear aga, and no longer misunderstand
each other. Perhaps when I burst out (one of the first) against Dimitri's
expulsion I shouldn't have used the adjective 'Yankee', in denouncing
the mentality you also denounce. The reason I said 'Yankee' is because
it seems to be _very_ common in your part of the world. It's not because
I 'hate' or 'envy' Yanks! But I strongly believe that there are quite
common _assumptions_ appearing again and again throughout the Net,
which _do_ originate in the States, among the people you _also_ oppose.

In my part of the world, NOBODY would EVER, seriously claim that an "open
meeting" held in his house is subject to his "censorship". Then the
meeting would by definition NOT be public...

Other than these (serious points) we both seem to love our countries
and this has nothing to do with nationalism or petty patriotism (IMO).




>Time to kill the EFF, and let it rot in hell.  They are disgrace
>to the entire InterNet community.  I run 6 different mailing lists,
>and have NEVER puled the plug on anyone, even when they criticize me.
>
>The first time is the time when you lose all credibility, and there
>is never any forgiveness for a plug-puller.

THIS is a very SERIOUS point: Censorship is like... prostitution.
The first time a person accepts money to offer a... blow-job, is
sufficient for the loss of all sexual credibility. Similarly, people
who ban someone from some medium of expression become _PIMPS_, which
is far worse than whores (whose therapeutic role has been grossly
underestimated by the world's cultures)... ROTFL!!!!

Indeed, in my country, we use the word "pimp" for an editor who
sacks journalists because of disagreeing with their opinions.
(even though as I said the 'journalism' analogy is irrelevant here).

Finally, only a fool or a bigot would fail to realize the
seriousness and the correctness of what aga has said.

So I shake your hand, Yankee rascal! :-)
Peace
George