From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 20:29:13 -0800 (PST)
To: m5@tivoli.com
Subject: Re: THAT is what makes John Gilmore an ASSHOLE!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.961115073500.2693I-100000@dhp.com>
Message-ID: <328E79CB.103F@gte.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Mike McNally wrote:
> Dale Thorn wrote:
> > Mike McNally wrote:
> > > (So what if John decided simply to pull the plug on toad in order to
> > > plug in a new hot tub?)

> > Well, what if he did?  Are you sure that would make aga look like a
> > fool, or would it make you look like a fool, since it would tend to
> > confirm what people like aga have been saying?

> No, and it's not clear to me why you think my question had anything to
> do with my wanting "aga" to look like a fool.  That was not my intent.

You mean you really respected what "aga" was saying?

> I simply question the claim by "aga" that somehow Mr. Gilmore is
> obligated to provide his services and capital to support the "public
> property" that the cypherpunks list has allegedly become, as opposed
> to treating it like the ephemeral by-product of software running on a
> computer he owns.

Neither "aga", nor myself, nor anyone else I know has suggested what you
claim, anymore than we would obligate ourselves to do it. This is merely
a classic denial technique you and others are using.

The fact is, the list does run, and you'd have a hard time convincing me
or anyone else that (according to your claim) John would somehow be spending
*more* capital and doing *more* support if he hadn't cut the "Doctor" off
of the list.

What myself and others would like to see (and we're willing to argue for
such a thing as much as is humanly possible) is a non-hypocritical list,
where a person is not banned for the content of their speech as Vulis was.

People who agree with you drone on ad nauseam about Vulis' "actions",
another denial technique IMO. What Vulis *did* was speech, not "actions".

Frankly, I would much rather read his postings than the anti-speech drivel
that's been posted so much here lately.

I'm guessing John must be thinking one of a couple things:

1. Like a home property in Beverly Hills, where all the lawns are neatly
   trimmed, and everyone behaves so properly, John looks at "his" list one
   day and freaks out, saying to himself something like "gadzooks, Vulis
   is trashing my list, as though he moved in next door and lowered the
   value of "my property".

   And don't get me wrong, I understand the feeling, it's just that when
   you've decided you have a "right" to control something like cypherpunks,
   all you're really going to accomplish is to lessen your own reputation,
   because you can't control cypherpunks like you can property in B.Hills.

   If you like the Beverly Hills analogy, try to come up with a scenario
   where (as in Beverly Hills) you can get the cooperation and approval of
   85% - 95% of the residents (subscribers) to boot out the undesirables.

2. John may have become concerned about his possible liability for some
   of the postings (accusations of child molesting, etc.), and panicked
   and did the knee-jerk damage control he thought best.

   Now, under ordinary circumstances, a list "owner" or operator may not
   be responsible for any of the traffic content, as long as it can be
   demonstrated that they "weren't aware" of any libelous content. In the
   case of cypherpunks, though, Gilmore could scarcely deny knowing about
   some of this stuff.  **This is mere conjecture on my part**.