From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:27:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Moneychangers and Shylocks
In-Reply-To: <19961102153422.6553.qmail@squirrel.owl.de>
Message-ID: <0mSu1s200YUh0Ms280@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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Secret Squirrel <nobody@squirrel.owl.de> writes:
> jer+@andrew.cmu.edu wrote:
> 
> > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> 
> > > and opportunity for me and my family, Arguing
> > > that native peoples were better off before the arrival of Europeans is
> > > fatuous nonsense--you can't go home again.
> > 
> > Not true. "Society" has passed through Africa many times, the people
> > revert to their previous ways.
> 
> I disagree. Only some ways, you don't see them tossing their AK 47s for spears.

Once they run out of ammunition... Really, most weapons in the more
primitave parts of africa haf about 3 rounds of ammunition for them.
The bands of AK-welding poachers and the like are paramilitary groups
supported by professional poaching operations or they're fighting some
"benefactor" nation's dirty little wars for them. The media
representation is quite skewed, as is usually the case.

> > > Further, many of the leftist critiques of "moneylending as exploitation"
> > > are similar to past (and current) demonizations of moneychangers,
> > > moneylenders, shylocks, and other assorted stereotypes.
> > >
> > > I don't favor nationalistic lending and borrowing policies, which, for
> > > example, involve some central government borrowing money, sending the
> > > borrowed funds to personal Swiss bank accounts, and then sticking the
> > > nominal taxpayers with the debt. Nothing I have said here endorses
> >  this.
> > 
> > But that's the only way it hapens in the third world. The only time
> > foreign aid is not gutted by corrupt beaurocrats is when the
> > Westerners go there and manage the projects themselves. This is quite
> > different from a loan.
> 
> Wrong, and wrong. Lending to individuals is happening, in $100 or so ammounts,\
>  without westerners (or their governments' crooked bureaucrats) present, right\
>  now.

I'd like to hear more about this. Can you send me/.the list some info?

> > > But much lending is useful. It's the way factories get built, the way
> > > things get done.
> > 
> > Heh, have you ever *seen* a third world factory 10 years after it was
> > built. Nice bit of scap, that.
> 
> Ask of government was involved.

Given the nature of many of these governments, privately-owned
factories are a no-no.
 
> > > Much of the criticism of "moneylenders" is closely related, if you
> >  think
> > > about it, to criticism of "money launderers." Cypherpunks should relish
> >  the
> > > rise of new mechanisms for money laundering, moneylending, tax evasion,
> >  etc.
> > >
> > > I took the "Wired" quote about Walter Wriston "sounding like a
> >  cypherpunk"
> > > to represent this new view, in explicit contrast to his earlier views
> >  when
> > > he headed Citibank and they had a more statist approach.
> > >
> > > Your mileage may vary, but tired homilies about lending being exploitati
> > on
> > > are not very useful in this day and age.
> > 
> > I dunno, pearls befre swine still applies. It's not that I think
> > lending is bad, but large economic development loans to thrild world
> > countries continue to support corruption and oppression, and not much
> > else.
> 
> Because of governments more than banks. You are beginning to see the light.

There is no or little infrastructure to support large-scale private
lending in most African nations. THe government wants its 20% cut, or
the currency must be exchanged at artificial rates, or you must meet
rediculous regulatory requirements. And most of these governments are
not above making large amounts of people dissapear if they don't
follow the rules.

But to a large extent we agree. Private lending can be a very Good
Thing. However, given the current regulatory practices in many African
(and I assume most third world) nations, large-scale private lending
is not a viable solution. I mean, it really is a morass. Everyone has
to work within the system (this includes those wealthy enough to
ignore the laws and bribe their way through), and the system tends to
be large, cumbersome, and astoundingly slow.

Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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