From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 20:00:41 -0800 (PST)
To: ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Subject: Re: Secrecy: My life as a nym. (Was: nym blown?)
Message-ID: <3.0b36.32.19961113223308.00c43ba4@panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 10:14 PM 11/11/96 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>This is an interesting topic. I apologize if my questions are too trivial,
>but here they are: 
>
>	1) Can a person without an SSN have a credit record? Some
>	   may say that a credit record is a bad thing to have,
>	   but I am still interested in a possibility.

If you have a credit history you can have a credit record with or without
an SSN.  Millions of foreigners have credit histories without SSNs BTW.
Millions of people with wrong or false SSNs also have credit histories.
The SSA decided a few years ago not to let the credit reporting agencies
check the validity of the SSNs in their records with the SSNs in the SSA
database.

>	2) Will private lenders (such as credit card issuers or
>	   mortgage companies) agree to extend credit to a person
>	   without an SSN or to someone who refuses to give out his SSN?

Not if they are in America but those outside America will.  False SSN's may
work though falsifying mortgage applications (with a federally insured
bank) may be a crime.  Individuals can also grant mortgages however and are
free to do so without using an SSN.  

>	3) Will the state issue a driver's license to someone who does not
>	   have/does not wish to give out their SSN?

Those states that don't require SSNs will of course.  Some (most?) states
that require SSNs don't validate them.  Canadian provinces don't require US
SSNs to issue licenses.

>	4) Will states' police (where applicable) approve purchases of
>	   firearms if purchasers do not state their ssn (misstating it
>	   may be a crime) on an application?

It's been so long since I bought from a dealer.  Do the current federal
forms have a place for SSN?  

>	5) Employers are required to pay certain taxes and therefore
>	   they, in my understanding, need to know their employees SSNs.
>	   How can people get around that (unless they do not need to work)?

Lie, be self employed, or be employed by a foreign entity.  They won't be
able to verify until the new Instant Check Right to Work Verification
scheme that the Feds are testing breaks wide.  Then it's self-employment --
better for you in any case.

>	6) Can someone without an SSN obtain various kinds of insurance?

Some kinds.  Again, the numbers are rarely verified.  

Over the years, I've only seen one number be bounced back and that was
submitted to a bank by a person who did not vet the number for facial
validity.  If one institution turns you down, go to another.

>Say, John Anonymous is a young 15 years old who anticipates to become an
>engineer and have a middle class life. He wants to get married,

No problem (unless his fiance wants to run a credit check).  Even if the
marriage license app wants an SSN, just say you're a foreigner with no SSN.
 Foreigners can still marry in America.  Even if you also state on the same
form that you were born in the US, you could still be a foreigner who's
never really lived here.  "My father was the Canadian Ambassador at the time."

>have children

Still accomplished by unskilled labor totally without an SSN.  

>drive a car

Put hands on wheel and foot on gas.  Trivial.  Lie or get a foreign
license.  UK licenses are good for decades.  A dozen states (or so) still
let you operate a motor vehicle sans public liability insurance BTW and
non-drivers, corporations, other entities, in fact anyone or anything can
own a car.  You can drive a car owned by something/someone else.

>obtain insurance

Lie.  Or get insurance from a nice Swiss company.
  
>work at some big company,

A lot less of that going around these days.  Giving a false SSN may or may
not be caught.  Large companies often do credit checks these days but you
will probably survive.  If you're working at a large company as a
contractor or temp of course, your small agency may not have checked you
out much.  You can satisfy the I9 form requirements for proving right to
work by flashing your passport BTW and you can still get a passport without
supplying an SSN (in spite of the law).

>travel around the world

No problem.  The ICAO record format for the nice little machine readable
strip on passports *does* have space to place a National ID Number, but the
standards do not require that a nation issue a National ID Number and fill
that block.  The UK and the US and others have (so far) not done so.  The
US legislation (effective January 1988) that the Passport Office's
Application ask you for your SSN and forward info on refusenicks to the
Treasury Department for a possible $500 fine, specifically says that
failure to provide the number shall not be grounds for refusal by State to
issue a passport.  In practice, Treasury has not fined anyone. 

>invest in mutual funds or buy stocks

Lie, have a corporation or trust you control buy, buy overseas or via
Canada, etc.

>Reliance on government help is not important to him, so he would not
>apply for an SSN solely to get Social Security, welfare and such.
>
>His parents are cypherpunks and did not obtain an SSN for John. How much 
>effort would it cost him to live a life outlined above?

Less effort that cross country skiing (in calories burned).  May even
provide similar recreational value depending on John's ideology.

DCF 

"You're real smart.  I bet you never forget your Social Security Number.
What's your Social Security Number"? -- The Susan Sarandon character in
"Atlantic City"

"I don't have a Social Security Number." -- The Burt Lancaster character in
"Atlantic City"