From: Jeremiah A Blatz <jer+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:00:45 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Remailer Pricing
In-Reply-To: <n1364045177.55582@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Message-ID: <0mXZIy200YUf13OHI0@andrew.cmu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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"Mullen Patrick" <Mullen.Patrick@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com> writes:
> Peter Hendrickson's electrons stated
> >
<snip>
> 
> Perhaps we've been thinking about anonymous mail the wrong way.  Is it
> like the U.S. Post Office where you have to physically go someplace,
> buy a stamp, physically write your message, put it in a physical envelope,
> carry it to a box someplace, and then wait (maybe four days) for it to
> arrive, all for "only" 32 cents?  Or is it more like Federal Express
> where you pay 20 bucks and it arrives the next day, for sure, every time?
> 
> Earlier today somebody sent a message about his scary former employers
> and (apparently) how they just kill people.  Would that person pay, say,
> $5 to have the message delivered reliably and very anonymously?  My
> judgement is that it would be worth every penny, and probably more.

Umm, okay, great. So we eliminate all the spam, all the harrassment,
all the frivolous anonymous mail, everyone who uses anon remailers as
a matter of course, and what do you get? One message slowly going
through the system, tracked every step of the way by <indert evil org
here>. Message reordering doesn't help much with one message. The
remailer net *needs* traffic. Preventing spammers is one thing,
discouraging use of remailers in general is another.

> 
> >Right now the remailer network is a mess.  There just aren't that many
> >remailers operating in a timely and reliable manner.  I am not knocking
> >the remailer operators for this, it's just clear that "free" doesn't
> >make it worth their while to keep the remailers operating perfectly
> >at all times.
> 
> Very true.  This strengthens my point that the remailer operator would
> want a piece of the pie, as well...

I suggest that US$.15 to US$.05 per message would be quite reasonable
compensation. The price can't be high enough to make people think
about it, unless they're going to send lots of messages.

> >A good pricing strategy for remailers would be to charge, say, $1 for
> >instant delivery, $.50 for 30 minute delivery, etc.  To generate
> >interest, 4 hour delays could be imposed for free remailing, if the
> >resources are available.
> 
> fTotalCostOfDelivery = fCostOfReceipt + nRemailersUsed * fRemailerCost
> 
> Obviously, nRemailersUsed is only necessary for anonymous chaining...
> 
> Don't get me wrong, there's nothing meant by this equation, no point 
> trying to be made, nothing.  I'm just showing you the pricing strategy.

This pricing strategy would greatly serve the cause of traffic
analysis. There has to be enought delay to collect enought messages to
do some reordering. You could send out bogus messages, but iy wouldn't
be too too difficult to track them far enough to see that they don't
go anywhere interesting.

> I strongly agree with you that paying for remailer use would greatly 
> improve service, and would probably be a good thing.  In the case of
> chaining, there would have to be a great deal of trust involved so none
> of the remailers stole all the postage w/out forwarding the message.  
> (Just a thought, anyway)

That's why you would PGP encrypt the cash. "Trust? What's that, I've
got (ta da) STRONG CRYPTO!"

> Here's an idea I was tossing around sometime earlier--
> One capitalist idea that would invalidate this theory.  A remailer would
> make a lot of money if they made a deal with an advertiser, esp. an 
> advertising agency (containing ads for many companies, if I chose the 
> wrong words) if they eliminated incoming postage, and possibly paid outgoing 
> postage or had the ad agency pay the postage (within limits, of course).
> The remailer would then tag on advertisements to each mailing.  Direct
> marketing (Note: This is what we're trying to avoid, but I see it happening)
> The non-charging remailer would become wildly popular, as they don't 
> charge postage, and they would be fast, because they would have corporate
> sponsorship.  This idea is *far* from being farfetched; it exists now.
> Every mail I receive at my free geocities account has an ad attached.

If remailer prices were trivial, I don't think this would happen.
Besides, chaingin blows this away. The only time an ad gets delivered
to a person is when the advertising remailer delivers it to its final
destination. 

Interesting... those interested in not having to put lots of effort
into management operate internal-only remailers, those interested in
making a buck operate termious-only remailers...

Whee. Diversity. The species evolves.
Jer

"standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew
 why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole

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