From: Jim Ray <jmr@shopmiami.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:40:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Who owns cypherpunks
Message-ID: <199611071940.OAA83990@osceola.gate.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Date: Fri Nov 08 02:39:25 1996
Jim Choate writes:

> There is one important legal aspect which the operator of the Cypherpunks
> mailing list has opened themselves up for with this action. In short
>  they
> have now opened themselves up for defamation and liable suites by
>  imposing
> an editorial policy on the contents of this list (1).

I fear you mean "libel," and I think not. (see below.)

<snip>

> Censorship is censorship, irrespective of the source of the limitation.

Oh good. I think I'll sue the Miami Herald for not printing my last letter 
to them. After all, they "censored" me, right? NOT!!!

> Free expression is impossible in an environment of censorship. The right
>  to
> speak not only implies a right to not speak, it also implies the right
>  to
> emit complete mumbo jumbo.

I'm afraid we have an excess of living proof around here, lately. <sigh> I 
am beginning to see why people vote the way they do...

>The actual content of the speech is irrelevant.
> 
> The Constitution guarantees freedom of speech and press. This does not
>  imply
> in any way an abrogation of responsibility by the party speaking or
> distributing it. Only that they would not have limitations on their
>  actions
> imposed by the federal government.

I am beginning to wonder if you are serious about promoting John to the 
level of "the federal government." If this was a joke and I don't get it, I 
ma sorry to have taken you seriously.

>                               ARTICLE I. 
>  
>       Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, 
> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of 
> speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
>  assemble, 
> and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. 

[Would that it were so, but...] John is not in the U.S. Congress, and even 
if he were, this list is _his_ property, not mine, and not yours. He can do 
with it what he likes.

<snip>

> I have argued in the past that this list is a defacto public list because
>  of
> the way it is advertised and to the extent it is advertised. All the
>  protests
> by the operator to the contrary will not convince a court.

Name one ad for cypherpunks. This list is John's property, and he could cut 
us all off tomorrow for any reason or no reason. Deal with it. I seriously 
doubt that even the most socialistic judge in the U.S. (and there are 
plenty) would buy this kind of garbage.

> Hope you folks have a good lawyer.

I'm sure John's quaking in his boots. Reread my campground analogy, and try 
to refute it. You can't. Go start your own list with no moderation. Go start 
a more moderated list than John's, like Perry's will be. Do whatever, but 
this moronic thread must end! It is very strange to me that the people 
asserting some sort of "implied contract" among cypherpunks have yet to 
offer to pay even *one* month of John's costs. If you want to call the tune, 
then pay the piper (if he lets you). If you don't, then be quiet about what 
you're obviously ignorant about.
JMR


Please note new 2000bit PGPkey & new address <jmr@shopmiami.com>
This key will be valid through election day 2000.
PGP id.A7D63DA9 98 1F 39 BA 93 86 B4 F5  57 52 64 0E DA BA 2C 71
Please avoid using old 1024bit PGPkey E9BD6D35 anymore. Thanks.
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