From: nobody@huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:47:24 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Redlining
Message-ID: <199612110147.RAA24444@mailmasher.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 5:37 PM 12/10/1996, Jim Wise wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
>
>> The logical implication here is that a thousand people "getting
>> together" and doing something is no different in principle than one
>> person doing that something.  Not a valid implication, although the
>> result is not necessarily false on a per-case basis.
>
>Actually, I think this is a very valid implication.  One of the main
>ways in which statist societies justify their restrictions on
>individuals is by reifying large bodies of individuals and giving
>them their own rights and responsibilities _as_a_seperate_entity_.
>To speak of a mass of individuals, whether you call it a corporation,
>a collective, or a government, as having a different set of rights
>than the individuals who make it up, is the heart of statism.

Naturally, I agree with Jim.

To expand on his comments, if it is acceptable to lend your money to
whomever you like, surely it must be acceptable to lend your money to
other people on whatever terms you like.  These terms could be "I will
lend you this money on the condition that you lend it only to
pure-blooded Albanians."

The reason organizations are subjected to controls has only to do with
what is feasible.  The people who want to control these organizations
would be quite happy to dictate to individuals what they may do with
their money.  Fortunately, this is not practical.

Historically, many societies have not allowed the formation of
organizations without governmental approval.  For instance, in
pre-Revolutionary France, it was not even possible to form a club
without official sanction.  The Monarchy made a major concession when
it permitted the free formation of clubs.  It may also have been a
strategic blunder, as the clubs immediately became the focus of
Revolutionary political activity.

I believe that in many Medieval and Renaissance societies, even
something as simple as a market could not be established without
approval.

One of the great ideas of the modern age is that people have the right
to form organizations.  It should probably be in the Bill of Rights.
(We do have the right to "peaceably assemble", but that is not as
general as the right to organize.)

You are completely correct that control of human organizational
activity is the hallmark of a totalitarian state.

Back to redlining, it is typically minority groups which are the most
prone to lending only to their own group.  This has been said about
Jewish people, although I haven't seen it in practice.  (Perhaps this
was true a few centuries ago?)  An excellent modern example is the
Korean-American community.  There is a custom to form pools of capital
between small numbers of friends, five would be a typical number.  One
friend is appointed to set up and run the business.  There are very
powerful social prohibitions against failure and consequent loss of
capital.  Very seldom is one of the group anything but Korean.  My
understanding is that this works quite well.  It is hard to find
anything objectionable in the practice.

>> Ironically, discrimination, prejudice, bigotry, hate, etc. are often
>> judged by the public on a "gut level" as well.  It's just a matter of
>> how to "educate" the public to see these things.
>
>Exactly.  Like most, I have a strongly visceral negative reaction to
>bigotry.  I wish there could be a system of law which contained it.
>There cannot, or at least not without doing even more harm.

But what is it that we want to make illegal?  Bigotry is not a well
defined term.  Generally what we object to is people drawing the
"wrong" conclusions about other groups of people.  Certainly, we do
not believe that we should dictate what conclusions people should
draw, any more than we believe we should dictate what they may say.

Do we then believe that we should outlaw the actions they take based
on these beliefs?  So long as the people in question are doing no
harm, I propose we leave them alone to live their lives.

Ironically, I have found that those who are most vocal on the subject
of bigotry are most prone to it themselves.  It isn't okay to make
statements of your belief regarding Albanians - especially poor
Albanians - but it is okay to make any statement about yuppies,
preppies, geeks, nerds, Libertarians, Objectivists, or any other sort
of approved "those people" groups.

I'm sure many readers of this list have had conversations which
abruptly end with "Are you a Libertarian?", which is generally
completely irrelevant to the point under discussion.  What is
happening is that the other person is more interested in knowing your
tribal identification than what you believe.  A pity.

Red Rackham