From: attila@primenet.com
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:39:43 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Cypherpunks as Philosopher Kings [was permanent invasion of privacy]
Message-ID: <199612181741.KAA25446@infowest.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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        Currently, I am not sure what the charter of cypherpunks 
    really stands for, if anything.  As it stands, the list has 
    a far more erudite group than the list it probably should be. 
    certainly more privacy and social engineering issues resulting 
    from the deprivation of privacy than code.

        I don't believe Cypherpunks was ever intended to be a technical
    forum; I was not on for the first few months so I missed the 
    formative discussions of the elitist few, most of whom, other than
    founder tcmay, have left for greener pastures. 

        In the beginning years, there was a substantial amount of 
    crypto code, etc. passed around and argued. However, the few of us
    who do code, do not generate enough messages relating to code to 
    warrant a list; therefore the passionate interests which travel 
    as coders' baggage seem to explode and others, some technically
    competent and some not, join the list and the circus goes on.

        Frankly, I have hired and "mind-fucked" (pardon my french, for
    lack of a more descriptive expression) scores of hacker grade
    philosophers.  That is exactly where it runs: they are philosophers
    first and creative coders second. As to their knowledge of philo-
    sophy, and the direction of their creative talents to a logical
    and usable conclusion, they score a fat zero as by and large they 
    are geeks and idealistic social nerds. --hence the need for subtle 
    background manipulation to make these philosopher-coders think your
    design is actually their great philosophic-coder design. 

        Yes, and _never_ assign two of them to the same compartment: 
    the code never works  --absolutely will not share tasks. Common 
    interface boundaries? No problem for their minds, but too 
    creatively selfish to code associative modules.  For that reason 
    alone, I hold C++ in contempt: a black box that is _supposed_to_ 
    to look for 'this' and give you 'that.'  C++ is an ignorant
    managers ultimate wet dream:  "reusable code containers for 
    disposable programmers."  For some reason, Bjorn elucidated a 
    strenuous objection to my statement. <g>

        For what it's worth, the above is my perception of cypherpunks: 
    an interesting collection of philosopher kings, some of whom are
    putting their convictions to the means of thwarting the common 
    enemy.  It is no accident most subscribers, and certainly all the
    doers, are anti-government with a preference for social anarchy,
    the anarchy tempered by some level of realization that the mass
    of humanity can not govern itself in a society which is inherently
    evil. However, if the Libertarian Party can not field a better 
    candidate than Harry Brown, anarchy, or a premature dictatorship,
    it will be.  The US is in the last laugh of the oligarchy at this
    point in time. 
    
In <1.5.4.32.19961218084853.005de95c@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 12/18/96 
   at 12:48 AM, stewarts@ix.netcom.com said:

::Attila wrote, 
::        symposium were Dr. Jack C. Westman of the University of
::	Wisconsin-Madison, author of "Licensing Parents: Can We
::	Prevent Child Abuse and Neglect?" and Professor David T.
::	Lykken of the University of Minnesota, author of "The
::	Antisocial Personalities."  Westman and Lykken are the
::	most prominent advocates of a system of parental
::	licensure in which parents would have to be certified 
::	"competent" by the government before being permitted to
::	raise a child.
::
::and blanc wrote
::  Someone needs to remind this Senator Lykken what happened in Romania,
::  when the beleaguered citizen-units finally took their 'noble', social 
::  engineering leader Ceausescu, put him up against a wall and
::  shot him.
::
    I do not believe they gave him the benefit (?) of the wall.

    Ceausescu, like all "communist" dictators of this century, was
    just that: a dictator falsely claiming to be the 'Great Father'
    who will right all the wrongs, put too many chickens in each pot,
    and generally hold your hand while his local version of the Gestapo
    permanently eliminates dissent.  It appears to works until the 
    state has drained the natural and human resources of value, further 
    accelerated by corruption and the increasing apathy of the people
    who no longer produce more than a subsistence living at best. 

::Fortunately, Lykken appears to just be a professor, not a legislator, 
::so he can spend your money but can't tell you what to do.
::He's obviously also a subject of his book......

        out of curiosity I was poking around a bit; he apparently has
    legislative backers. I would be surprised if the bill made it out
    a subcommittee hearing. however, his theory melds nicely with the
    intentions of superbitch; there is no doubt in my perception of her
    '...Village' --superbitch is heading for the nursery of "Logan's 
    Run" and the surrogate nanny super-machines. --35+ years ago the 
    book?  I did not see the movie which may or may not have been able
    to deal with the concept of enforced euthanasia at age 21. Super-
    bitch must have seen the movie too many times, or slept with the 
    book in her early pubescent dreams.

::Before we go licensing parents, we ought to license people who
::want to be Big Brothers......

    License them?  Why license them before we hang them?

::[This didn't seem to be cypherpunks material any more...]

        Actually, it is: invasion of privacy; no secure communica-
    tions, and all the other falderol.  

- --
  I'll get a life when it is proven
    and substantiated to be better
      than what I am currently experiencing.
            --attila

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