From: harka@nycmetro.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 05:50:51 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: My Departure, Moderat
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Hi there,

 > ...and saw no point in wasting even more of my time arguing against the New
 > Cypherpunks World Order, as the NCWO was clearly presented as a fait
 > accompli, not something ablut which opinions of list members (or even list
 > _founders_, at least not me) were being sought.

 -=> Quoting In:sandfort@crl11.crl.com to Harka <=-

 In> Factual error #2.  There was a call for comment; Tim chose not to
 In> do so.  In retrospect, I wish we had run it by Tim, Eric and
 In> Hugh in more detail before making the annoucement, but we didn't.
 In> Certainly a tactical error and a breach of protocol, but not the
 In> end of the world.  Sorry Tim.  I should have spoken to you first.

Tactical error and breach of protocol, but not the end of the
world??
Very weak and dangerous argument. I already hear the Administration
saying: "Oh sorry, we didn't tell you about the new wiretaps
affecting 50 percent of all phone lines. Certainly a tactical error
and a breach of protocol, but HEY, it's _not_ the end of the world!
Plus, it's good for you!"

 > * But the really important issue is this: is the _physical hosting_ of the
 > Cypherpunks mailing list coterminous with the "Cypherpunks"? If the list
 > was hosted by, say, UC Berkeley or PGP Incorporated, would we consider
 > these hosts to be the "owners" of the Cypherpunks group?...

 In> I think this is a Straw Man.  John and I have never argued that
 In> John "owns" cypherpunks.  When a Cypherpunk meeting is held in
 In> someone's living room, however, I don't think it's asking to much
 In> to ask everyone to follow the local rules (e.g., "no shoes in the
 In> house" or "no smoking" or even "no ad hominem attacks").  As Tim
 In> is fond of saying, "my house; my rules."  I don't think this
 In> means Tim "owns" a physical meeting in his house.

It really doesn't matter. I do agree, that having a meeting in,
let's say, your house, everybody has to submit to the "local rules",
i.e. no shoes, no smoking etc.. To avoid those rules means not to go
to that location.
However, any rules in a certain location do NOT affect speech. While
I may enforce the rule for people not to smoke in my house, I can't
enforce anything in regards to their speech. The mere try would be
counterproductice to having a meeting in the first place.
On a mailing list like this one, trying to enforce certain
_subjective_ standards is even more counterproductive, especially on
the self-proclaimed fore-front of liberty (Cypherpunks).
I do agree with TCM, that this is an argument for the very enemies
of free speech and neglecting the individual filtering-capabilities
of each subscriber.

 In> no evidence that it has made things worse.  Remember, there are a
 In> hand-full of subscribers to the Flames list, 20-30 on the
 In> Unedited list and *2000* or so on the Moderated list.  Sure some
 In> of that may be due to laziness, but it would be cavalier in the
 In> extreme to claim that such an overwhelming acceptance of
 In> moderation is merely an artifact of inertia.

Not necessarely. By subscribing the regular way: <subscribe
cypherpunks user@adress.com> one gets on the moderated list by
default. It might take (esp. new) people a while to realize, it's
moderated. And since it's Cypherpunks, they subscribed to, they
don't even _expect_ such things in the first place...
I'd do it vice versa, having them subscribe to unedited by default
and only if they make the effort (deliberate choice) to get on any
kind of moderated version, they can do so by sending a message to
majordomo.


Ciao

Harka

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