From: dlv@bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:30:11 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
In-Reply-To: <33453A2A.167E@ai.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <RwqN5D2w165w@bwalk.dm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu> writes:

> Timothy C. May wrote:
> > 
> > At 3:17 PM -0800 4/3/97, Anil Das wrote:
> >     Gee. I too wonder about that, since I am pretty
> > >sure the Feds don't have to time to read the cypherpunks
> > >list.
> > 
> > This is simply not true. Various government agencies/employees read the
> > Cypherpunks list.
> 
> Absolutely! I know quite a few who do.
> 
> Before Oaklahoma I spent some time trying to persuade people to take
> notice of the net.activities of the likes of Ahmed Cosar, an agent
> of the Turkish secret service who posted inflamatory material about
> Armenia into various newsgroups under the name Hasan B. Mutlu and 
> Serdar Argic. I'd guess that at this point the FBI has its own
> version of DejaNews.

Of course, everything Serdar Argic posted to Usenet was 100% documented truth.

The FBI would be better advised to look a close look at the terrorist activity
of one Ray "Arsen" Arachelian, an ASALA sympathizer in the employ of Earthweb,
LLP.

> 
> Its not hard to do analysis of USEnet, a bit of simple graph
> analysis. The real loons tend to turn up on the net.kooks 
> list quites quickly in any case.
> 
> 
> > This is not a matter of thinking ourselves self-important; this is just a
> > simple observation that there aren't a lot of places with more incisive
> > analysis of issues of importance to these folks. 
> 
> Plus not everyone in the agencies are pro the administration line. 
> I've met plenty of CIA and NSA people who think the GAK idea a
> pointless and futile waste of time. 
> 
> I suspect that most analysts read c'punks for the same reason I
> do, to get the widest possible range of views on what the posibilities
> for the future are.
> 
> 
> > Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is
> > another matter.
> 
> Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views.
> If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being
> presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.
> 
> Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a 
> hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more
> sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government 
> officials, some of my relatives are in government and have 
> had well publicised assasination attempts against them.
> 
> 
> I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected
> speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments. I'm scanning
> through my old mail files at the moment for missives from Bell
> re-reading them. 
> 
> I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or
> for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim 
> demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was
> possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. 
> Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell
> on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his
> AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to 
> murder.
> 
> 
> It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an
> IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece
> may have constituted a threat. If he spouted "Common law court" 
> theories as often to the IRS as he did AP on cypherpunks he would
> certainly have been marked for scrutiny. Its not hard to 
> connect with his AP piece which has been all over USEnet. According
> to the story they got it from a copy left behind in Bell's 
> seized Honda.
> 
> 
> 	Phill


---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps