From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:43:48 +0800
To: "Mark M." <markm@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: The War is Underway (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970510192350.2999A-100000@purple.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970511125117.9012O-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sat, 10 May 1997, Mark M. wrote:

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> 
> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
> > The amount of confusion over what represents a good algorithm is also
> > interesting.  Take CAST, which seems a promising cipher and which we
> > considered using over IDEA.
> > 
> > On asking 4 "experts" about CAST, I got 4 answers.
> > 
> > 1>  A 64 bit cipher with 40 bits secret.
> > 2>  A 64 bit cipher - not expected to be very complete.
> > 3>  A 128 bit cipher.
> > 4>  "Not worth discussing."
> > 
> > In fact, as I understand it, CAST is of variable key length (Up to 128
> > bits), and quite resistant to many attacks which plague DES and even IDEA.
> > 
> > But digging out that information was painfully difficult.  (It may not
> > even be correct).
> 
> According to _Applied Cryptography_, CAST is a Feistel cipher with a 64-bit
> block length and 64-bit key length.  So far, brute force is the only known
> attack.
> 
> As far as "obscenely large" key lengths are concerned, 3-key triple DES
> uses a 168-bit key.

As I recall, 3des ( DESk1 -> DESk2^-1 -> DESk3 ) has an effective
keylength of 112 bits.  Less than IDEA.  Schneier discusses this.

> Using large key sizes for passphrase-based systems is difficult, because
> it's just too difficult to remember a passphrase with enough entropy to
> make a difference.  Assuming a random passphrase with 6 bits of entropy
> per character, over 21 characters would have to be used for there to be
> 128 bits of entropy.

I dislike this line of argument for several reasons.  It reduces security
to the lowest common denominator.  Because, the argument goes, few people 
will use more than a 21 character passphrase, then we need not design
anything with more security.

In reality, I think that the percentage of people who use more than an 8
character passphrase, especially outside these circles, is small.
Following your logic, our high end of security should be about 48 bits.

> Systems that use randomly generated keys are
> limited only by the amount of available entropy, but then the passphrase
> security to encrypt the secret key or physical security become important.
> Using excessively long keys does not do much for security, as there are
> always going to be weaker links that an attacker can take advantage of.
> It doesn't hurt to use a 256-bit key, or larger, but it doesn't do much
> good, either.

Again, you have taken an important concept, total security, and reversed
it.  Instead of aiming to make each link as strong as possible, you have
aimed to design around the weakest link.

This is a serious mistake in my view.

It costs little today to develop a cipher with larger keyspace.  (DES with
independent subkeys already exists and has a basic keyspace of 768 bits.
A meet in the middle attack reduces keyspace to 2^384.  Schneier discusses
the cipher briefly).  If users are willing to deal with large keys (I
certainly am) then software designers are restraining a more secure
implementation.

I think most will agree that anything over 150 bits makes brute force
a losing effort.  Unfortunately it has to be deployed first.

 
> 
> 
> Mark
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