From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:26:42 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
In-Reply-To: <199705201930.MAA05329@you.got.net>
Message-ID: <v03007802afa7c77529a3@[207.167.93.63]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


At 7:47 AM -0800 5/20/97, Peter Trei wrote:

>What I posted was an idea for a POLL, nothing more. There was no
>suggestion that of any kind of action or incentive - no advocacy
>of murder, no anonymous cash, no payoffs, nothing. This is NOT
>'implementing a variant of assassination politics', and I take
>strong exception to your implication that I would support such
>a thing.

All Bell ever proposed was a kind of POLL. A series of bets. There is very
little distinction. In fact, were a POLL to be used as the scoreboarding
mechanism, any number of clever derivatives of the same poll could be used
to implement AP.

(To flesh this out, imagine Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas posting the poll
the way they post racing results...others could then take bets on who would
appear on the poll. If "Janet Vegas" led the poll of "Living Persons
Desired to be Dead," and I knew approximately when Janet Vegas were to
die--similarities with AP intentional--then I could make a fair amount by
betting that Janet Vegas would soon disappear from that list of "Living
Persons Desired to be Dead" poll.

My point was not that you were supporting the kiling of anyone, Peter, but
that your playing around with a variant--and I maintain that this is what
your POLL is--of Bell's variant is essentially just what Bell was doing.

(I happen to think it's a lot cleaner and more efficient to have primary
market, using untraceable contact and payment systems to contract for
murders, and that Bell's AP was clumsy and inefficient and would probably
have outcomes far from what he speculated might be the outcome.)


>
>I really hate it when you misread, misconstrue, and misquote
>other people. You really seem to have a very tenuous love of truth
>and accuracy when falsehood will serve your purpose better (if
>you think that sounds like the tactics of a certain large
>organization you dislike, you're right.)

As I said, I wasn't claiming you supported AP or killings in general. I was
noting that your playing with related ideas, which surely you must admit
bear several similarities to AP, is just what Bell was doing.


>Let's take just one paragraph from your latest screed. Can you back
>up all or even most of the points in it? I don't think so. You wrote:
>
>>The United States of America is the world's leading terrorist state.
>
>Matter of opinion. I suspect that Libya, Iraq, and Iran are better
>candidates. If you include internal terrorism, add China, North
>Korea, and many others ahead of the US.

As you say, a matter of opinon. Next point.

>
>>From mining harbors in countries with democratically elected
>>governments...
>
>I've got only a quibble with this one. We did mine Managua, ie one
>harbor in one country. While this was clearly unacceptable behaviour,
>it does demonstrate your tendency to play fast and loose with
>numbers.

It seems you agree with me on this. Next point.


>>...to financing the blowing up of airliners by dissident
>>groups
>
>Really? Which ones? Be specific. Which airlines, which flights?
>What were the circumstances in each case? You're using plurals
>again, so you'd better have multiple instances.

Cuban Airlines, for example, by CIA-funded Cuban guerillas. Cf. the URL
http://www.cubaweb.cu/noticias/violence.html, one of many describing the
details.

"The U.S. government has taken almost no action against Cuban
emigree terrorists who operate freely from U.S. territory, despite
the fact that that country pretends to condemn terrorism around
the world. Further, when Cuban defectors have hijacked planes
and boats and/or killed people in the process, U.S. has refused to
return them to Cuba for prosecution and, in fact, have released
them with at most a gentle verbal slap.

"The most awful terrorist action occurred on October 6, 1976, when a bomb
planted aboard a "Cubana Airlines" plane exploted after the passenger jet
took off from Barbados, killing all 73 people aboard -57 Cubans (including
the entire fencing team), 11 Guyanese and 5 North Koreans."

The CIA also engineered the bomb timers Terpil and Wilson, either CIA
agents or CIA renegades, or both (you decide), used in several airliner
destructions. (Why was the CIA building altitude-sensing bomb fuzes which
could be disguised in radios? Only one guess allowed.)

(It's also been reported that Abu Abbas has worked for the Agency, and that
much of the Bekaa Valley/Syrian/Lebanese drug trade is connected with these
areas. No time to write about it here, but do searches on BCCI, Abbas,
Castle Bank, Terpil, Wilson, Bekaa, etc.)


>>...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished
>>to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.
>
>Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?)
>exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state?

It would take too long to find all the URLs and supporting evidence for a
precise count, but here are some of the _countries_ and leaders in which
the U.S. has been fairly convincingly linked to the killings:

* Iran/Mossadegh
* Algeria/Ben Bella
* Congo/Lamumba (and the guy who came before or after)
* Viet Nam, Diem, and other regional leaders
* Cuba, several attempts on Castro, well-documented (they got Che Guevara)
* Chile, Allende
* several other smaller African nations, whose leaders were assassinated in
what are believed to be CIA and DIA actions (or where CIA, etc. provided
support)

As to Carter's order, so? Do we know, or even have reason to believe, that
Reagan, Bush, and even Clinton have not had government officials of even
heads of state in other countries whacked?

(Noriega claims, fairly convincingly, that he holed up in the Catholic
hospital (or church, whatever) because he understood the desire of the U.S.
was to kill him and not have to have a very public trial in the U.S. This
is not a proved claim, but the "smoking gun" on these sorts of things is
rarely found. Many analysts have stated that avoiding taking Noriega alive
was a goal of "Operation Just Cause.")



>Tim, can you back up your words with facts, or are your recent
>posts "... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."?

Well, it seems we agreed the first "claim" was a matter of opinion, the
second one was as I stated it, the third one was evidenced by the Cuban
airliner blown up by CIA-funded terrorists (excuse me, "freedom fighters"),
and possibly other examples in the Mideast. Which leaves the last point,
about assassinations of foreign leaders.

Counting all the killings of leaders, I believe the body count for
U.S.-sponsored or -encouraged killings will exceed a dozen. Maybe a couple
of dozen over the past several decades.

In any case, if you want me to taken the "s" out of "dozens," as I cannot
document 24 such kilings, I will be happy to.

(Here's one analysis, of many, of the Lamumba situation: "CHARLAYNE
HUNTER-GAULT: Le Mumba, the first democratically elected leader in all of
Africa, was aligned with the Soviet Union, and in the post-independent
chaos was murdered, if not with CIA help, many believed with CIA blessing.
Urquhart argues that the politics of the Cold War severely retarded Zaire's
political development.

"SIR BRIAN URQUHART: These were proxy Cold War battles, and, of course, the
Congo, now Zaire, originally got into trouble on an East-West split because
the West of the United States backed President Kazabubu and the East and
Soviet Union backed the prime minister, who was Patrice LaMumba."

Add to this list the others I mentioned. I'd say it's fine tribute to a
democartic people's republic like the USA.


>There are sufficient *real* problems with US policy that
>your exaggerations are counter-productive.
>

I stand by what I wrote.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
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