From: "Jim Burnes" <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:09:40 +0800
To: Hallam-Baker <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: McVeigh
Message-ID: <199706040145.TAA04223@denver.ssds.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Just thought I'd fire off a few comments re: the okc bombing

> Date:          Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:43:10 +0000 (   )
> From:          Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk>
> To:            Hallam-Baker <hallam@ai.mit.edu>
> Cc:            cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject:       Re: McVeigh

> 
> > > Yes, poor Tim Mcveigh.  If he's innocent then he is one more victim
> > > of the OKC bomber.

Its more like poor innocent workers and kids who are just more 
victims of the insanity initiated by the Scott, Weaver and Waco 
murders.  Brought to you by the good government of holy statist
religion.

None of those criminals have been tried, much less convicted.

My favorite quote from the Scott murder (I believe it was from the
local prosecuting attorney).

"...well they just lost their moral compass"

And so did McVeigh.
  
> > 
> > I'm surprised at the concern. After all I've not noticed militia
> > supporters and appologists speaking out against the death penalty.
>

Irrelevant.
 
> Tim McVeigh certainly acted for the right reasons.

He acted for reasons that had nothing to do with murdering innocents.
I guess this was his US Army training in the Gulf.  I think it was an 
act of cowardice.  If you have a grudge with some US officials and 
you think you will be the avenging angel it takes much more courage 
to attack them personally than to blow up a building.

But if we're talking relative evils then at least his motives were not
to plunder someone's land, to run live stormtrooper excercises
against a church or to collect a paycheck for assasinating a mother (baby 
in arms) from a safe distance.



> 
> Whether McVeigh himself did it or not is questionable, I believe he did, 
> this is just a gut feeling, no jury should have convicted him on the 
> pathetic collection of circumstantial evidence presented.

The only thing I think he should have been convicted of is 
conspiracy.  The rest of the so-called evidence is pretty flimsy and
never actually locates him at the scene of the crime.  Of course
conspiracy in an act like that should probably get you life.

...misc rantings deleted....

HB states...
    
> > McVeigh ripped the heart out of the militia movement, he demonstrated
> > what it was really about. Ironically the Oaklahoma bombing may have
> > had precisely the effect McVeigh desired but in a very different 
> > sense. It was a wake up call to defend the country from fascism 
> > but the fascist threat was McVeigh and the millitia movement.
>

Hmmm.  Well just in case anyone has forgotten, McVeigh was ratted out
by the Michigan Militia when he went to one (1) of their meetings.  
This happened because he tried to sell them the idea of 
blowing up federal buildings.   The MM called the FBI, which admitted 
it.  I guess the Feds thought..."oh, just another wacko wanting to blow 
up federal buildings.  We'll get to him later.  Right now we have 
more important things to attend to - like covering up Waco."

> > recovered from the beer hall putsch. Alternatively they can 
> > loudly claim that McVeigh was "framed" in the same way that
> > other neo-NAZIs on the net claim the holocaust a fake, i.e.
> > so that nobody really believes it. I suspect that this script
>

Cool.  Lets set up an excellent strawman to knock down.  How come 
whenever HB (and other socialist/statists) talk about the opposite of 
statism they always talk about NAZI's.  (remember National 
>Socialist's<).  Oh, fascism is another favorite label.  Fascism is 
from the Latin "fascia" - - to bind together.  Politically fascism is 
the melding together of state and corporate interests until each
serve each other well.  Maybe we can identify fascism on the
American scene.  CNN lapdogs reporting Waco "news" directly from
the FBI's on-site mouthpiece.  Other big-time media keeping their
respectful 3 miles from the Davidians' religious community.  (not 
compound, not cult).  Whatever happened to the reporter in the field 
from the Vietnam war days?  What about AP filtering out the DEA siezure 
of a military cargo aircraft importing 1 ton of cocaine into Alameda 
naval airstation?  What about 60 minutes' analysis of the infrared 
footage where the ATF was mowing down citizens fleeing the Waco 
barbecue?  Their experts told them that murder was being committed.
Nothing on TV.

...that's fascism.

(sung to the tune of That's Entertainment)



> The militias would be better to disown McVeigh and condemn his alleged 
> actions because he killed innocents. 
>

See above.  The MM rejected him, but the FBI thought he was harmless.

End game.  McVeigh guilty of whatever.  They are probably right.  
What I'm more interested in is the nest of viper's behind the man.
Since we're invoking WWII Nazi history, can anyone say,
"burning of the Reichstaag"

Jim Burnes
Engineer, Western Security, SSDS Inc
jim.burnes@ssds.com
----
Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government
of himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him?  Let
history answer this question.  -Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural Addr