From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:05:44 +0800
To: tesla@ssz.com
Subject: Re: Controversial Technology (fwd)
Message-ID: <199707220550.AAA13344@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:48:45 -0700 (PDT)
> From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
> Subject: Re: Controversial Technology

> > I would however like to point out that security through obscurity (ie
> > ignorance) is not security. It is self-delusion. One can not protect them
> > selves reliably from the many consequences of technology and society via
> > ignorance. That which you don't know not only can hurt you but can kill you.
> 
> I don't understand.  You hate unix security, and the solution is to
> screw up as many systems as possible?  That's like hating cars that lack
> armored glass, and going out to smash windshields every night. 
> Destructive acts say much more about those who perform them than they do
> about any weakness of the victims.

No, I hate unix security and it behooves me to know as much about it as
possible so that I may be better informed about its limitations and protect
myself and my property from those out there who hate unix security and plan
on using it to get something from me without my prior permission.

So studying the dynamics of auto glass breaking is equivalent to automotive
vandalism? I bet auto engineers might just object to that generalization.

If I own the car it might be in my best interest to know something about
auto glass to decide whether what I have is enough or should I really buy
that nifty keen security system. Calling the cops and asking them how most
cars get broken into does not lead to the conclusion that I am going to
break into cars.

"A>B" is not equivalent to "B>A".

Discussion toward understanding something is not the same as doing it. If it
were we would all be rapists and murders. 

> What exactly does computer security have to do with amateur science?

Computer science isn't an amateur science? I have to strongly disagree and I
suspect that most computer hobbyist would as well.

I don't know about you but I use my computer for science (and sometimes
it's hooked up to other computers via the net) and therefore find it useful
to understand how they work. Both for when I want to get them to do
something specific as well as when trying to figure out why the silly thing
don't work the way it is supposed to.

This list supports the use of computers as well as the study of them as
analytical instruments or as objects of research themselves. The study of
virus development is as valuable as the discussion of compiler design.

> This brings up an interesting question about your overall philosophy: what
> are your views on discussion of plans for bombs, weapons, poisons, etc. on
> tesla list?

I will attach the info file at the end so that you may review the general
views of the list as well as some of my own.

I have no objection to the discussion of such issues provided they are
within the charter of the list. In short, discussions about how they work,
how to measure various parameters (eg briance and explosives), the history
of the technology, etc. Obviously you can't discuss how to measure the
effectiveness of a poison, for example, if you can't first define what a
poison is and how it works (otherwise how do you know what to measure?).
So if somebody, for example, wanted to discuss how curari works toward the
end of better understanding the human body and the measurement of its
various processes there would be no objection. If you want to propose going
out and actualy killing somebody, then I have a problem.

> If you're all for 'em, then this is an adults-only list and I
> need to remove my site info about tesla@ssz.  The big kids can play all
> they want, but I won't steer the little kids directly to the dangerous
> stuff if I can help it.

Knowledge is danger, leave them barefoot and pregnant...

Do what you want, but this list is not rated and irrespective of your
opinion I will continue to refuse to rate any services from SSZ.

Please, don't send them to somebody who has a clue about it and can direct
them to creative uses for that interest (ie visit the Polic Bomb Squad and
perhaps try to get them to support some sort of activity with the kids),
instead let them figure it out with their friends in the garage over a long
weekend. If we're lucky one of them will survive.

Would you do me a favor and auto-program the phone for 911...

    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http:// www.ssz.com/  |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|

(Please excuse the fact that I haven't updated all the .info files to
 reflect the changes going on here at TAG)

Welcome to the Experimental Science Instrumentation mailing list. This list
is hosted by CyberTects in Austin, Tx. If you have questions or problems
please send email to 'list@ssz.com'. You should receive a responce shortly
afterward.

There is a place for a webpage on the SSZ homepage. However, currently
nobody is involved in any sort of project. If interested please send a note
to the list. To see what else is up at CyberTects look at
http://www.ssz.com/. It ain't much, but it is home...;)

This mailing list is intended for the rigorous exploration of nature. One of
the primary areas of experimentation is instrumentation and data reduction.
This list is intended as a resource for the advancement of knowledge in both
areas. As a consequence off-topic discussions are STRONGLY avoided.

This list is NOT intended for beginners. They are certainly welcome but are
expected to stay out of discussions they are not experienced in. General
questions are welcome from any party on relevant issues. We strongly believe
the novice experimenter should be helped. Discussions at all levels are
available. It is not acceptable behaviour to expound on personalities or
other 'flame bait' topics.

Sale and advertisment of services are permitted with due consideration of
the other members of the list. Each 'ad' should appear ONLY ONCE per
calendar year. The 'ad' MUST be relevant to the mailing list members and its
charter topic. All responces should be by direct email.

As a member of this list it is expected you pursue active experiments or
projects. We would very much like to hear about what you are up to and where
you are taking it. A working knowledge of diff-eq's, computer programming,
basic electronics (analog & digital), physics, chemistry, safety
proceedures, etc. is assumed for most discussions.

The person behind the email is Jim Choate. I would like to tell you a little
about myself and provide some insight into the mailing list.

This list is NOT for the exploration of pseudo-science, space aliens, etc.
I named the list after Nikola Tesla because I admire his accomplishments and
his strong indipendant nature.

I have been building 'projects' since I was a kid of 8-9, I am now 37. For
seven years I built projects at Discovery Hall, a hands-on science museum in
Austin, Tx. I am currently working on a hexapod robot and a high-performance
rocket. I am currently a computer engineer for Tivoli - IBM as well as run my
own business, CyberTects. In both cases I play with what I lovingly refer to
as the 'bleeding edge'. Through CyberTects I support several hands-on
technology mailing lists and two user groups.

I started the list a couple of years ago with the intent of finding others
who like to build 'professional' quality projects. Since that time it has
grown slowly but steadily by word of mouth. The folks who participate in the
mailing list are truely an impressive lot. Don't feel hesitant about
starting a dialogue. Historicaly the list has been very low traffic. The
majority of traffic is cross-posts from other sources. I would really like
to see more discussion about current projects.


             "Reality is observer dependant"
                              \
                                \   \\/////
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                                    (.) (.)
      ===========================oOO==(_)==OOo==========================             

                                  James Choate

         Tivoli                                 CyberTects: SSZ
         Customer Support Engineer              SOHO-VR-HPR-Robotics

         9442 Capitol of Texas Highway North    4312 Avenue A
         Suite 500
         Austin, TX 78759                       Austin, TX  78751

         Email: jchoate@tivoli.com              Email: ravage@ssz.com
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      ===================================================================

         Political ideal: The Constitution says "Congress shall make no
         law..." & What happened to the 9th & 10th Amendments?

         Philosophy: Pantheism - the belief that everything is divine,
                                 that God is not seperate but totaly
                                 identified with the cosmos, and that
                                 God does not possess personality or
                                 transcendence.

      ===================================================================

         The end of our exploring will be to arrive at where we
         started, and to know the place for the first time.

                                                T.S. Eliot

      ===================================================================

                         Chance favors the prepared mind.

                                                Anon.

      ===================================================================