From: Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:15:31 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
Message-ID: <49688cba207d1bb86d63bc14117aab4e@anon.efga.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex Le Heux wrote:
>On 2 Oct 1997 00:24:27 +0200, Anonymous (sic) <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>>Alex Le Heux wrote:
>>>Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire
>>>world is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that
>>>regard.
>>
>>I guess the conclusion, then, is that gun control is bad for the
>>whole world, not just Europe.
>
>Eh, no. The conclusion would be that gun control or no gun control
>does not affect the amount of war in the world at all.

It certainly affect civilians!  Most of the people who die in wars are
not in armies.  They are in villages, towns, and cities.  Roughly 50
million people died in World War II.  Perhaps 15 million (numbers
approximate) were soldiers.  Being unarmed is often unlucky.

>>>And even if I had my AR15 then, it wouldn't help me a lot against
>>>guided missiles and mortar fire.
>>
>>It's harder to police a hostile population which is well armed.
>
>True, but imho this will only result in more people getting killed.

It can result in that, certainly.  But somehow the next time your
country is overrun, I doubt you would take your weapons (assuming you
had any) and give them to the invader in the hope that this will
increase the likelihood of your survival.

>Any invader would not beat about the bush in the US, they'll make
>very clear that they'll have nothing to do with citicens defending
>their own homes. They'll just blow up the home from a distance.

Ah, if they know which home to blow up they will.  But they won't.
(Unless they get their hands on the government gun registration
records.  Then they'll know which homes to go to.)

>>>And anyway, "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual
>>>arguments against gun control.
>>
>>The popularity of an argument can be independent of its worth.
>>
>>"To defend yourself in general" is commonly used.  War, oppressive
>>government, and political turbulence are the most likely situations
>>in which people need their weapons, even in the United States.
>
>Bullshit. People in the US rarely use their weapons against oppressive
>governments or political turbulence.

Sometimes we do.  Study the Black Panthers.

You raise a good point, though.  I believe that widespread gun
ownership acts as a dampener on conflict.  People discover that they
really can respect Group X enough to cut some kind of deal rather than
herding them into concentration camps.

The dynamic here is probably complicated.  It isn't as simple as "Oh,
we don't want to go after them, they have guns!"  That underlies the
process, but usually it translates into respect.  (Look at how people
feel about a "Mafia Don" versus "some greaseball working in a
restaurant".  Most people despise the man in the restaurant, even
though when presented in neutral terms they claim to respect his
behavior.  What's the difference between these two people?  It isn't
that one is the nicer guy.)

Should things progress to the point where armed troops are attempting
to haul people out of their homes, the availability of firearms acts
to drawn attention to what is happening.  The people committing the
acts are getting very strong signals that Something Is Wrong.  The
cost of collecting people increases dramatically when they are armed.

In Berlin the assembly area for Jewish people was originally somewhere
in the center of the city where other civilians could see what was
going on.  This caused discomfort and a certain amount of unrest
amongst the population, so they moved the assembly area to the
outskirts.  But, there would be no denying the implications of
automatic weapons fire all over the city.

Would this guarantee survival?  No, it would not.  But, in my opinion,
it would increase the odds.  You can imagine it going wrong: "We won't
be safe until we get rid of all those Jews and they damned assault
rifles!"  But, probably it would go the right way.

>Most guns that are used against another person there are used to
>commit crime or to defend against those armed criminals.

- From day to day this may be true.  But we are talking about those
exceptional circumstances that arise every few decades, especially in
countries where the peasants are not allowed to own weapons.

And, you might want to take a look at the numbers.  How many people
have been murdered outright by their own governments in the 20th
century?  (This number excludes wars, which probably isn't
reasonable.)

It clocks in at well over 100 million.  (Anybody have the actual
number?)  It takes a lot of bar shootings to get up to those kinds of
numbers.

>>I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment
>>among the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other
>>European countries.  For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch
>>because when they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the
>>police.  The Dutch don't like the Germans because, well, they got to
>>know them a little too well in the 1940s and they are nursing the
>>grudge.
>>
>>With that sort of situation, anything can happen and it can happen
>>quickly, even if things seem mellow right now.  And these little
>>resentments and jealousies are felt between far more groups in
>>Europe than just between the Dutchies and the Germans.
>
>Excuse me? Have you ever even been in Europe? In the last 50 years I
>mean? You are so full of shit here, it's incredible. I hereby invite
>you to come over, and stay a while. I have a comfy couch.

Thank you for your kind offer.  If things go to hell here in the U.S.
in the next couple of years I may take you up on it.

Yes, I have been in Europe.  I drew my conclusions from talking to and
observing many Europeans.  It wasn't what I expected, but it caused me
to understand European history a little better.

In the U.S., even when we are ragging on another ethnic group or
another country, there is always this feeling in the air that is sort
of naughty and low class to be doing it.  In Europe, I did not sense
this at all.  (That's not all bad.  It's not hypocritical.)

People had all sorts of interesting views about people in other
countries.  I was particularly shocked by European anti-semitism.  You
can find people in the U.S. who will talk about "those New York Jew
bankers" and the like, but I hadn't really seen hardcore anti-semitism
before.  By hardcore, I mean people who see all Jewish people as
belonging to the same nationality, regardless of their passport.  And,
they don't think of this as a particularly remarkable thing.  They see
it as just one of those obvious facts that it would be foolish to
deny.

Jewish friends who travel in Europe have had repeated experiences
where people want to treat them as Jews, rather than as Americans of
the Jewish religion, which is what they are.

>Anyone in Europe can go anywhere else, and be treated reasonably to
>very well. We in Europe have put the crap of WWII behind us a long
>time ago. Something that you haven't managed to do apparently.
>
>The Dutch are absolutely not 'nursing a grudge'. Come and visit.
>You'll see.

I did see.  It was most interesting.  I had a long conversation with a
Dutch man once.  He was very pleasant, civilized, and intelligent.
Then he started telling me about the Germans and how pushy they were,
how they always butt in line, etc. etc.  I've heard similar things
from other Dutch people.  I personally witnessed a (very minor)
incident.

I have some German friends who were foully treated by the police in
the Netherlands, too.  These people are decent, polite, professional
people.  I have no doubt they did nothing whatsoever to provoke this
treatment.  (By "no doubt" I mean that we are talking about the most
civilized people I have ever known.)  But, they will never return to
the Netherlands and I don't blame them.

You might want to try a little experiment.  Are you capable of
appearing to be German?  If you can get the style and the body
language down, try coming into the Netherlands as a German visitor and
see what kinds of response you get.  If you can really fool people
into thinking you are German you will probably learn something
interesting about your country.  (It might be hard to pull this off,
though.)

>>Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their
>>occupation.  While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people
>>who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and
>>there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance,
>>there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well.  Not
>>only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch
>>informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.
>
>You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are still
>regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?!

Now, now, now.  Don't get all excited.  I said it was nice country,
didn't I?  I said some bad things about my own country, didn't I?  The
fact is, I think if you randomly selected people from the Netherlands,
in general you would do pretty well.

However, let's not deny what happened historically.  Even nice
appearing people do bad things.  And they aren't always Nazis, either.

As for racism, Europe is not without racism.  It's hard to quantify it
and hard to compare, but I suspect to a very great extent, America is
seen as being racist because we discuss it, feel guilty about it, and
try (sort of) to do something about it.  (Never mind all of the ethnic
groups in the U.S. that find they are able to live together
harmoniously, even though their ancestors in Europe were continuously
at each other's throats.)

I've had two American friends who were beaten in Europe in racial
incidents.  One was white, one was black.  One of them spent time in
the hospital.  Both crossed the racial line all the time in the U.S.
without incident.

>>I basically think well of the Netherlands and its people, but it is
>>important to recognize that certain unpleasant characteristics exist
>>in a large portion of the population of even a nice country.  It is
>>unlucky to pretend that these characteristics can never be expressed.
>
>We absolutely not pretending that this can never be expressed. In
>fact, it's being expressed every day. We have our neo-nazi political
>parties too. It's just that we here have learned our lesson, and very
>few people actually listen to them.

This may be true, but it's hard to tell.  The climate is not conducive
right now, either.  What would happen if it suddenly became clear that
anti-semitism would promote one's career?  I think you would find them
coming out of the woodwork again.

>>What would have happened if the citizens of El Salvador were
>>adequately armed?  One thing you wouldn't see is a death squad going
>>into a neighborhood to kick down some innocent's door and murder him
>>or his family.  At least, you wouldn't see it twice.
>
>Sure you would. It just would be that more bloody. The fact that
>someone is armed has never stopped anyone from attacking. You just
>make sure that your shot is the first and hits.

What are people in death squads like?  Believe it or not, they are not
so different from ourselves.  They also have fears.  People do, in
fact, act on their fear from time to time.  If you think that while
you are busy "shooting first" at some guy that maybe his neighbors
won't mind blowing your head off for it, you are going to behave more
cautiously.

At the very least, it will cut down your nightly "take" by at least
70%.  That's a big deal if you are part of the surviving group.

>>People who are well armed are less likely to become pawns, victims,
>>or slaves.  That is desirable.
>
>They are just more likely to become dead.

If you were faced with somebody you believed would enslave you, would
you throw away your weapon in the hopes your life would be spared?  I
doubt this very much.

>>Incidentally, the consistent support the U.S. government has shown
>>for murderous or even genocidal governments is of great concern to
>>those of us who live in the U.S.  It is unlikely that these tactics
>>won't be used here were there a serious political struggle and a
>>disarmed population.
>
>- From over here it appears that the majority of Americans doesn't
>really give a shit. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It was hypothetical.  I don't know if such a serious political
struggle will arise in the near future.

If most Americans don't give a damn, it will be very unlucky for
troublemakers like the cypherpunks.  In fact, though, most Americans
do give a damn.  Look at the great effort the government has to go
through to get Americans into wars.  It is a source of endless
frustration to the elite that the population won't just hop into wars.

Wilson and Roosevelt were both elected on peace platforms before
getting us into the World Wars.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNDPwxpaWtjSmRH/5AQHswAf/WD4jWejWmUX4GAaEkWcJW5uhnEXjiLap
G2lhu5E4/htFDe791IK6iZ1Pn9i7y8FnyzQMKwoA4sFlgFl4ZAZWCGktnLPBryOY
Mqk2ckQGdYEa87vsFVSPZsVCJ51vJadqeAE/dZgWSbB+Vhck+2AcNypw5gCFHT3F
N92K+KGvw/bKMS4oucomNaD1kpEsGcCBL95zcv/ZbgMKCz9LkdgHoS/GyzdssNCj
BCZWhnUci5gFM1Pa1AAM7HNwkohFMfEsX1dpKr56NbziT1QwUXLHUzW8Qxf+OB2h
6p+xLwcWzFNzpyN6CzJHbxaB0S9PVIuy9zMDz3xMynaAy3S+2zmVaw==
=tIFo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----