From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:24:06 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" (fwd)
Message-ID: <199710020034.TAA23126@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:16:22 +0100
> From: alexlh@yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux)
> Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"

> You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like
> any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point.

Actualy I have never killed anything with my current .22, but a lot of tin
cans and paper targets have been holed. And, no, I would NEVER consider a
.22 anything close to a self-defence weapon since even a head shot doesn't
guarantee anything other than pissing the target off. I might use it as a
club but it is not nearly that stout, I'd go for my shovel or hoe or maybe
my nunchakus (assuming they didn't have a gun -which most burglars and such
don't have).

> So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
> people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.

Actualy it cuts down on crime because the criminal is afraid they might get
shot. A perfect example of this is Florida or Texas where the vast majority
of people have guns. If you catch a burglar in your house or car do they
run? No. Why? In the vast majority of cases the perp states that they were
afraid of being shot - in effect saving both lives. I can say this, I would
never consider staying in a place for very long that prevented me from
owning a gun legaly. Well, actualy there is one way, guarantee that I get my
own personal police officer to go around with me (and they should be armed).
Here in Texas we have a law that permits the owner of property to kill
without warning any party stealing their property after dark. It's amazing
that the vast majority of burglaries and such happen during the day.

It's further interesting that in both Texas and Florida after legalizing
handguns the number of robberies and such went down, as well as the number
of violent crimes using guns. The only thing that went up was domestic
violence where one spouse killed another in a fit of rage. Had the gun not
been there they would have gone back to knives and frying pans which used to
be the weapon of choice. Are you proposing that we outlaw knives and frying
pans as well?

> Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In Europe,
> where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them for a long
> time a decent human being will not even think of shooting someone else.

Not mentality, maturity. I am shure they think about it all the time, they
just can't find an underground gun dealer.

Yeah, they not only blow up the individual target but a couple of dozen other
bystanders in the process. If it's so damn safe how come the cops over there
all carry machine pistols and such. Something you never see here in the
states even during a bank robbery.

> In the
> US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, many people would
> not think twice before shooting someone. The result of this is that the
> number of people getting killed by guns is enourmous, be they criminals,
> little kids, old grannies, or presidents.

First, not that many little kids are killed by guns. Most die many other
ways much more horrible. Two presidents and if Illinois is any show the
Grandma's can take care of themselves. Secondly, in this country more people
are killed each year by hands, feet, and clubs than guns. Thirdly, the vast
majority of gun owners would no more shoot somebody without thinking than
they would run over them in their car. Beside, it takes a moment of
reflection to get the sites lined up. 

> We are not trying to export our stupidity, we're just trying to explain to
> you how we live. We live in a place where we don't even have to think about
> getting a gun, because the chances of us encountering a gun in the hands
> of an adversary are negligible.

You have accepted your over-bearing invasive jackbooted police with a
equinimaty that would never occur here - we'd shoot the SOB's. Sounds like
when it comes to sheeple the US has a long way to go when compared to Europe.

> Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. If you have lots of guns around, you're
> gonna end up with lots of people getting shot.

And if some of those aren't shot we'd have a lot of people running around
with other peoples property against their will. Shooting a person is in and
of itself not bad, if you believe it is then I take it you support disarming
the police and military as well.

Do you support capital punishment?

Apparently it's you and your ilk that haven't gotten the clue:

It isn't that a gun was used but under what circumstances.


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