From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)Nerthus <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:10:59 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Choate Doesn't Do His Homework
Message-ID: <199711241003.LAA27231@basement.replay.com>
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Jim Choate wrote:
>Make up your own mind on the validity of the claims.

I prefer facts when it comes to making up my mind instead of baseless
claims.  For the others on this list who prefer the same, let me set the
record straight...

Jim Choate wrote:
>It has been claimed that the original claim by Bob and anonymous was that
>the first Great Awakening ended by the late 18'th century. This is a
>complete fabrication. 

Yes, and you are the fabricator.  Bob claimed it happened in the 19th 
century (see Fact 1 below).  I claimed it happened in the early 18th 
century (see Fact 3 below).

>                       The original claim put forth clearly references dates
>in the 1800's as the date of the first instance, clearly 50-100 years in
>error from the original Great Awakening that occurred between 1700-1750. 

For the umpteenth time, that was Bob's original claim, not mine.  See above.

>                                                                          In
>my original posting I (thought) made it clear that I didn't quite know when
>the original event occurred but was certain it ended prior to the late
>1700's which would clearly pre-date the original claim. I subsequently took
>the time to provide references for those citation and clearly indicated
>where my memory was in error, and even took the time to explain my confusion
>regarding the 'Beacon on the Hill' movement.  In responce Bob and apparently
>anonymous made it clear that they saw no reason to do 'homework'
>irrespective of the impact of historical accuracy on their claims.

Bullshit!  I did my homework.  You (and Bob) didn't.  But because I am a nice
guy, I share it with you here.

The bottomline is that you screwed up, Jim.  You misread my original post 
(confusing the 18th century for the 1800's) and started this whole chain of 
events.  The facts (not the claims) clearly bear this out.

Nerthus

_________________

T H E   F A C T S

[note: I have edited the attribution lines for clarity, but all posts are
referenced to the Cypherpunk Archive]


F A C T  1: 
<http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/dir.archive-97.11.13-97.11.19/0556.html>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0500
Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote:
>> Um, I believe that went from the late 1500's to the early 1700's at best.
>
>Nope. Check it out. As defined in any decent book of American history,
>well, maybe one that hasn't been too "revised" :-),  the "Great Awakening",
>which gave us most of our American-flavored religions, happened in the
>early part of the 19th century, though rumblings started shortly after the
>revolution.


F A C T  2: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0036.html>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:54:37 -0600 (CST)
Jim Choate wrote:
> X-within-URL: http://www.gnbvoc.mec.edu/webquest/PPERRY3.htm
>
>                   2ND GREAT AWAKENING & WESTWARD EXPANSION
>                                        
> 1815-1850


F A C T  3: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0055.html>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:25:01 -0000 
Nerthus wrote:
>Jim Choate wrote [in response to Bob]:
>>After thinking about this I am certain that you are speaking of a movement
>>other than the Great Awakening. I can't remember or find a convenient name
>>for the religous/ethical awakening that occured prior to the Civil War.
>
>"THE GREAT AWAKENING
>
>"A conservative reaction against the world view of the new science was 
>bound to follow, and the first half of the eighteenth century witnessed a 
>number of religious revivals in both England and America.  They were 
>sometimes desperate efforts to reassert the old values in the face of the 
>new and, oddly enough, were themselves the direct product of the new cult of 
>feeling, a philosophy which argued that man's greatest pleasure was derived 
>from the good he did for others and that his sympathetic emotions (his joy as 
>well as his tears) should not be contained."
>
> -- The Norton Anthology of American Literature, Third Edition, Volume 1


F A C T  4: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0056.html>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:38:10 -0600 (CST)
Jim Choate wrote:
>Nerthus wrote: 
>> "THE GREAT AWAKENING
>
>No, "The Second Great Awakening" which happened to be followed by "The Third
>Great Awakening".
>
>You didn't read the various posts that I sent out earlier on this did you...

[Once again, yes I did.  1815-1850 does not equal early 18th century!]


F A C T  5: <http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/current/0143.html>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:54:09 -0600 (CST)
Jim Choate wrote:
>Nerthus Wrote:
>> Uh, Hello?  Your post entitled "1st Great Awakening" describes the exact
>> same thing that I called simply, "The Great Awakening."  It was not, as you
>> say above, the 2nd one.
>
>They are they same if we ignore the fact that there is 50+ years between
>the 1st (1700-1750) and the 2nd (1800-1850).

>I did some looking around as well and other then Norton, yourself, and
>whoever it was that made the original claim all references I can find to
>the Great Awakening refer to the 1700-1750 event(s) as the first one to
>occur in the America's. If I can find my Norton Anthology I'll take a
>look at it, though it is 15+ years old.

[Once again, Norton and myself referenced the Great Awakening to the
early 1700's/18th century: see Fact 3]

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