From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:03:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Violence and Depravity
Message-ID: <199711250251.DAA23507@basement.replay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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A Noncom To Be Named Later wrote:
>Monty Cantsin wrote:
>>Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time, >money, and energy.
>
>I disagree.

I've removed the discussion regarding McVeigh's involvement.  It is
entirely possible he is an Oswald.  I simply do not know.  However, my
discussion was really intended to consider the morality of war and to
point out that McVeigh's alleged actions and alleged values are not
far removed from those exercised by governmentally sponsored warriors.

If you like, change all the names and call it a thought problem.

>Consider that if this action was meant to revenge or commemorate the
>Waco massacre, it achieved the opposite goal.  However, if this was
>the work of agents-provocateur, it worked beautifully.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that the Oklahoma City bombing
was the act of provocateurs hoping to increase the power and authority
of the U.S. Federal government.  It is the case that the use of
violence has been applied to this goal successfully many times in the
past.

This certainly does call into question my claim that "Violence is, in
nearly every case, a poor investment of time, money, and energy."

Your observation and my claim are actually not inconsistent if you
consider that I do not consider increasing the power and authority of
most governments as a good thing.

Let's expand the discussion to war.  If one considers it desirable to:

1. increase taxes,
2. to waste vast resources,
3. to kill large numbers of civilians indiscriminately or methodically,
4. to kill large numbers of conscripts,
5. to destroy the land,
6. to create millions of people who will live the rest of their lives
   in post combat nightmares,
7. to lay the seeds for future wars,
8. to create thousands, or even millions, of orphans,
9. to cause food shortages and disease,
10. and to traumatize human society,

then violence in the form of war is a good investment.  Not too many
people see this as desirable.

I still maintain that in nearly every case, if one is intent on
pursuing a worthwhile goal, it will not be attained through the use of
violence.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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