From: Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:22:22 +0800
To: cypherpunks@ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
Message-ID: <199712160537.XAA05115@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:57:22 -0800
> From: Steve Schear <schear@lvdi.net>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
> 
> I think both you and Bell are in relatively good agreement on the problem,=
>  differing mainly on the means of a solution.

Well that is the litmus test after all, not the goals but rather the means.

>  Although, like you I have=
>  never considerd engaging in acts of violence to right the wrongs in our=
>  legal structure,

I wouldn't say that. I just can't justify them unless under direct physical
attack. I am *not* a pacifist.

> I also do not believe that the changes you wish can=
>  reasonably be expected to be achieved through legal and democratic means=
>  within our lifetimes.

I hadn't really entertained the condition that the 'fight' necessarily has
to end in my life time. It certainly didn't end in Thomas Jeffersons. I do
know that if we don't try we have zero chance of gaining any of them, let
alone all of them. And who knows what the future may bring. Personaly I give
the US about 20 years before a general political - economic - societal
breakdown occurs. I believe that it will be even less violent but just as
radical a change as the fall of the CCCP. I further believe that movement
will *demand* ethical and reasonably justifiable reference to the respective
constitutional documents. I also believe that within about a period of 10
years there will be a significant increase in the number of federal
amendments clarifying many of the very issues we discuss today. I believe
many things will drive the change. Among them medical technology which will
re-grow cloned organs to replace any damaged or diseased ones you may have.
I suspect that instead of terra-forming people will clone themselves and
geneticaly engineer the embryo to adapt to the relevant environemt (Hint:
Dougal Dixon). I believe this technology will fine tune the legal issues we
ponder today to a fine edge. I believe the 9th and 10th will be recognized
for the defining tests of all federal, state, and individual jurisdictional
issues. I believe that as a result of those changes individuals will benefit
by being considered equaly with federal and state views.

> Almost from the start of our nation, the actions of the Federal branches=
>  have proven that the Anti-Federalists were right, that the Constitution (as=
>  accepted) would not prevent their power grab.  Wasn't it Article 2, Section=
>  18 which was intended to prevent such abuse, and which was easily overcome=
>  by the SC's liberal interpretation in Maubery vs. Madison? =20

I believe that people will recognize the totality of the current issues as
the exact same excesses. People will realize that the camp that demanded
specific bills of rights have the right idea. As a result we will get through
indipendant state action several amendments. Those movements will be very
goal specific and short lived. They will further depend on the Internet for
their existance. I believe they will start with individuals in specific
points across the US getting in touch and defining a small and specific set
of goals (ie Demonstrate constitutionaly that individuals have a right to
doctor assisted suicide and that it is an invasion of individual privacy.).
As those goals percolate via passive and active processes across the
Internet a commen experience will grow. An important question to consider:
How long must you hold a sufficient totality of state representation to
consider and pass a constitutional amendment?

> Little has changed, nor it it likely to, within the system.  There's too=
>  much inertia and entrenched economic and political interest, including the=
>  electorate's acquiessence to limitations of their liberties in exchange for=
>  real or imagined protection from harm.  I can think of no instance when=
>  changes, of the magnitude of which you speak, were made during a peaceful=
>  transition.  Can you?

No. However, that proves nothing. Simply because something has not happened
is no guarantee it won't happen. In all of human history this is the first
time that the Internet has existed, photon transportation didn't exist as a
verifiable process until just recently, there is now a movement in the dog
lovers camp to save clonable samples of favorite pets in the hopes of
cloning their best loved pooch. Technology as succesful as ours breeds a
technocracy if it doesn't kill us.


    ____________________________________________________________________
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    |
   |      We built your fort. We will not have it used against us.      |
   |                                                                    |
   |                          John Wayne -  Allegheny Uprising          |
   |                                                                    |
   |                                                                    | 
   |            _____                             The Armadillo Group   |
   |         ,::////;::-.                           Austin, Tx. USA     |
   |        /:'///// ``::>/|/                     http://www.ssz.com/   |
   |      .',  ||||    `/( e\                                           |
   |  -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-                         Jim Choate       |
   |                                                 ravage@ssz.com     |
   |                                                  512-451-7087      |
   |____________________________________________________________________|