From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:14:26 +0800
To: "Cypherpunks" <hjwiesner@uni-tuebingen.de>
Subject: [flames] a clueless can't see parallel between crypto-freedom and 2nd amendment...
Message-ID: <199809251459.KAA08436@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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From: jf_avon@citenet.net
Date: 25 sept 98  10h57 EST
Topic: [flames] a clueless can't see parallel between crypto-freedom
and 2nd amendment...

On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:11:10 +0200, Hans-Juergen Wiesner wrote:

Your comment is the first and only one complaint I ever received while
posting on this subject.  OTOH, I occasionnally receive mail to either
objectively discuss the topic or to comment in a positive ways my
posts.

Beside, post to the owner-cypherpunks to your hearth content, I am
not, as of a few weeks ago, on the list.  I jump in and off depending
on my time availability.


>At 14:53 24.09.98 -0400, you wrote:
>>   ====== forwarded from Canadian Firearms Digest, V2 # 605
==========
>
>I won't comment on your somewhat distortet view on reality and your
>miserable sense of logic proven by your "arguments".

Please submit me with your valid data.  I'll welcome it.

> I won't even lose a
>word on your misuse of HTML instead of plain ASCII for sending mail.

Then, don't... 

>It's just that I don't know why you distribute your meaningless
factoids by
>way of mailing lists like Cypherpunks (which is how I'm bothered by
your
>postings every single day).

Please feel free to enlighten me about reality and debunk my factoids.

As for why I fwd to the Cypherpunks, ask Tim May about the link
between govt trying to ban guns and govt trying to ban strong crypto. 
Or even better than bothering Tim, go back an read the archives of
Cypherpunks...


> Cypherpunks is a mailing list for users of 
>cryptographic technology. Topics are concerned mainly with software
and the
>implications of using certain programs.

Mainly.  But it is also *highly* concerned by the ethics and politics
of it.  Guns and crypto are, at the abstraction level, extremely
similar and therefore, it is not surprizing to see govt react the same
to both topic.  

An individual's specific psycho-epistemology and definition of Man
will, usually, lead to the same conclusions on theses two apparently
different topics. 

>Arms,which seem to be YOUR concern, are for shooting people or game.

Arms are NOT my concern, my concern is Freedom.  Guns are not for
anything in particular, they *are*.  Your choice to prefer to shoot
peoples than game or targets or simply to engineer a  more performing
piece of hardware is what you choose to do with it.  And is happens
that by the nature of them, e.g. the capacity to exert coercion at a
distance, they are the ultimate tools of choice of governments, which
by nature, are coercives.  Govts have their roles.  History has shown
over and over again ad nauseaum that govts are *dangerous* entities if
taken over by a certain category of individuals.

In order to defend the freedom of the individual, guns, i.e. tools of
tele-coercion are the ultimate deterrent.  Ask any american about it. 
Or consult the Constitution of the United States and see Thomas
Jefferson's explanation for the reason of the second ammendment.

>think this difference is big enough to justify my asking you to post
your
>stuff elsewhere.

I suppose you ignore that crypto is ruled by ITAR in North-America and
that the liberty-to-own-guns advocates also have their grips with ITAR
?

>I don't want to be bothered by unsolicited junk mail like
>yours any more.

when you sent the line subscribing line to the majordomo
subscribe cypherpunk-unedited hjwiesner@uni-tuebingen.de,  which
letters of the word "unedited" did you not understand?

There is *a lot* of junk mail coming from the cypherpunks list and my
posts represent my opinion, which in itself is legitimate,  an facts
obtained from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police itself.

If you don't want to receive any junk mail, send an e-mail to
majordomo@toad.com, leave the subject line blank and send the
following message:

unsubscribe cypherpunks-unedited hjwiesner@uni-tuebingen.de

Ciao

jfa
[note: when I post to gun groups, I use a crypto-oriented .sig and
when I post to crypto groups, I usually use a gun-oriented .sig.]

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Definition:  FASCISM: n.:  a political and economic movement, strongly nationalistic, magnifying the rights of the state as opposed to those of the individual, in which industry, though remaining largely under private ownership, and all administrative
political units, are controlled by a strong central government.
        -------------------------------------------------
"One of the ordinary modes by which tyrants accomplish their purpose, without resistance, is by disarming the people and making it an offense to keep arms".  - Joseph Story, U.S. Supreme Court Justice.
        -------------------------------------------------
the German gun control laws were enacted by the "liberal" Weimar Republic government that preceded Hitler, and were a strong aid to his coming to power -- because they disarmed Hitler's opponents, and Hitler's adherents ignored them -- as criminals have always ignored gun control laws.

Disarming the public is a frequent first step toward dictatorships and genocides.  Once the disarming is complete, the public is helpless against those who have the guns.        -------------------------------------------------

PGP keys: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html
PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 
PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C