From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:49:16 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809100116.UAA18005@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:29:14 -0500
> From: Petro <petro@playboy.com>
> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)

> 	There are lots of things you can make alcohol out of. Seaweed, etc.

True, but the amount of land needed to replace the oil reserves is a tad
excessive...

> for importation into the US.

Why? It's in their best interest to use the product in their own country.

> 	And what would you need to add to it to "color" the flame?

Indy racers  add various things to make it burn (usualy a orange) but I
don't have any references at hand and don't remember. Sorry I can't answer
that one specificaly.

> 	Put about 2% detergent (just about any grade will do) into that
> "water spray", and the fire goes out quicker, and stays out longer.

That'll work for gasoline because soap and gasoline are soluble. I doubt it
would work very well for alcohol but once I get this mess with the tree
straightened out I'll do a little backyard experiment.

What I had in mind was to pour some alcohol on the concrete drive way and
light it. Then use a waterbottle with a water/soap mix. Do you think that
would be a suitable simulation?

> 	There are plenty of unused roof tops here in Chicago bouncing free
> energy off into the air.

Yep, use the roof of every 10+ houses to power a single house...

> 	Again, there are a lot of tall buildings here where the wind is
> constantly moving. Also, we have this large, flat, relatively undeveloped
> area just to the east of chicago where the wind is constantly at least 10
> m.p.h. (from (admittedly imperfect memory) 7 m.p.h. is necessary to run an
> electric generator from a windmill) and where no one lives.

Ok, so you have acres and acres of power turbines on towers around Chicago,
where does Chicago move to? What about the rest of the country? The issue
after all is what happens when a renewable *replacement* for oil based fuels
is found? This is a much more global issue than Chicago. Besides putting a
wind generator on a building wouldn't even power the building.

> 	It's called Lake Michigan.

Ok, something got lost here...

> 	No, but it is PART of the solution.

Actualy it's not, if anything the pollution of mining, production, byproducts
of use such as acid rain, and some I've probably left out are only an
extension of the problem. The ignorance of long term costs of disposal and
ecological impact is one of my personal pet peeves with traditional economic
theory and why I pretty much think it's a pile of shit and economist in
general are idiots.

> 	Again, PART of the solution.

Ok, so we let PART of the people starve and die in the dark.

> 	The waste problem goes away of you build a decently stable launch
> platform and drop the shit into the sun.

We don't have engines at this point that can do that. The fact is that it
takes more energy to get to the sun than it does to leave the solar system.
Nope, not the answer. (I do experimental, ie big bird, rockets for grins and
giggles)

> "power sats" into orbit (altho I am not real clear on how the energy gets
> back down, something about using microwaves <shrug>)

Microwaves, and god help you if you happen to fly through one. I won't even
talk about the costs of development, control, maintenance, etc. This won't
fly any time in the next couple of hundred years at least. What about the
heating of the water in the air, can you say global warming on a scale that
would make the current issues irrelevant.

> 	Also, you ignored, or didn't see the "mix of" statement. Oil CAN be
> replaced, and should be. There are plenty of ways to replace the energy

Absolutely, I want to replace it. I want to replace it with something that
is renewable, won't have the ecological impact of the others, won't squeeze
the small countries out, etc. If it requires killing a single salamander
then it's the wrong choice simply to make a profit.

> for clean air as much as the next guy, and I guess trees are kinda nice to
> look at, but I'd like to see far more diversity in energy sources, and
> investigation into more long term, renewable sources.

I love trees.

The problem is that there aren't that many renewable resources that won't
break the bank or create a have/have-not situation that would be rife with
conflict potential.

> 	Actually it looks like something that could be made in a factory.
> Take a methane source (sewage, rotting plant matter) pump it into really
> cold water under pressure, and blam.

You need pressure as well. But yes, this is a possibility as well. I
haven't seen the energy costs on this approach. The largest producers of
methane on the planet are cows. Perhaps we should shove a hose up the hinney
of all the cows...:)

> 	Depends on what you want it to replace. The one of the largest uses
> of oil is in the transportation sector, and "they" have been pushing
> Natural Gas there for years to little effect.

Absolutely, there is a hurdle to jump. One of the main issues with the
traditional natural gas deposits are that they are expensive because of the
drilling requirements, non-renewable, and not evenly distributed to
potential users. Something deep-ocean clathrates and potentialy your
industrial process idea don't have.

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