From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:37:49 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: capitalism run amuck by Korton (fwd)
Message-ID: <199810280126.TAA10565@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:28:56 -0500
> From: Soren <sorens@workmail.com>
> Subject: Re: capitalism run amuck by Korton

> is that there is a distinct difference between capitalism in a free market,
> and the kind of corporate-capitalism that the world is enmeshed in now.

corporate-capitalism? Is that church-religion? Spin doctorism.

The problem is that economics have social effects and by extension it has
responsibilities along with them. We've allowed monetary interests drive our
government instead of issues of true civil liberties.

This should not be implied that this has *ever* been true. The Constitution
starts out talking about creating a 'more perfect' union. It's a goal we
should be striving for.  The founding fathers knew they couldn't fulfill it,
they knew their children wouldn't do it. They did believe that latter
generations could achieve it. We haven't fallen from grace, and the
politicians are probably not any more corrupt, because we never had it. If
democracy fails it's because *WE* failed.

The problem with free-markets is they give up all pretext to being imperfect
and claim to be *the* answer. But at they same time it completely ignores an
entire group of aspects of business operation and asks us to ignore them too.

> The former allows for the free exchange of value based upon the participants
> understanding of that value.

That pretty much excludes Jews & Arabs, etc....

> concepts such as "natural wealth", "legal tender", "zero sum economies"

Who in their right mind compares our economy to a zero sum economy?

> <P>An assumption is made that I fundamentally disagree with -- democracy
> is the holy grail of human social intercourse.&nbsp; Never, in recorded

It's not the holy grail but there isn't another system with anywhere the
potential for fulfilling human desires with a minimum of abuse and overhead.

Perhaps it would be simpler to simply admit the obvious and clearly state
that we no longer have a democratic system.

> history, has democracy existed without the support of client slave states/populations.&nbsp;

Well considering the world didn't pop out of a test tube but evolved over
time this argument holds little weight. The point *is* that democratic
system hold the best model we know of to date. Our particular twisted model
of it fails, that doesn't mean theory failed. It's one of the reasons I
always chuckle at those who say the fall of the CCCP meant the fall of
communism. What a maroon.

> but its a whisper in a propaganda hurricane,&nbsp; The US is not a democracy,
> it is a republic. For those of you who don't know the difference; a democracy
> puts everything up for grabs, including your life, liberty and the pursuit
> of happiness, while a republic provides 'certain inalienable rights', similar
> to those&nbsp; currently being alienated by the Klinton Kongressional Klan.

Um, actualy that is incorrect. A democracy is a system whereby the rules of
the system are determined by interaction of the population at the individual
level through a vote or other representitive mechanism. A republic is one
(sic) that uses a Senate (an elected body of individuals supposedly held in
high esteme, usualy two or more acting together) as that representative
mechanism. There are actualy many different mechanisms that are usable in a
democratic system.

Another thing is that in a Democracy there isn't a need for a Bill of Rights
since all participants are considered rational. The founding fathers had
useful insite when they appended that document under protest. The problem
with applying any political system is the 'shall not' and similar phrases.

What is the most interesting to me is that there is absolutely no reason to
have a President. There is nothing other than historical status quo that
individuals need to be the leaders of countries. Washington knew this when
he refused to be addressed as "Your Highness". It's a representation of
mass human psychology.

> <BR>to realise that under capitalism, democracy is now for sale to the
> highest

If so then it's only because we can't garner the support to pass an
amendment. If the problem is that serious and wide spread it should be put
to a vote and noted as an amendment. What simply amazes me is why neither
the pro- or con- side of the gun debate ever brings this up. This whole
issue could potentialy be solved by have the competing camps create two
amendments and submit them to the houses in the individual states.
Justification for this is pursuant (untested) in the fact that the people
are given a right to redress of grievances. Since the law prohibits
individuals from suing the government unless some weird permission is
obtained then the next best alternative would be direct submission of
potential amendments directly into the state legislatures. The people have a
right to change the law via constitutional amendment unfettered by federal
intervention or regulation. This would be a simple and expedient process with
email being what it is...

> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>is treated as progress. The world is now ruled by
> a global financial casino staffed by <U>faceless </U>bankers and hedge
> fund speculators who operate with a <U>herd mentality</U> in the <U>shadowy</U>
> world of global finance.</BLOCKQUOTE>

And you want to turn these folks loose in an economy with no regulation (ie
free-market)?

> <BR>details of our president's sex life and calls for his impeachment for
> lying
> <BR>about an inconsequential affair.

Ok, so next time I have to speak under oath for a traffic ticket it's ok if
I lie too? How about a murder trial? How about *your* murder trial?

Anyone who doesn't understand the implications of a class based legal system
in a democracy is lost in the ozone...

I'm gonna stop now, this is entirely too long an initial troll and I don't
have the time to go through it further.


    ____________________________________________________________________
 
       To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice.

                                                     Confucius

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