From: Jim Choate <ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 02:39:07 +0800
To: cypherpunks@EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Something else... (fwd)
Message-ID: <199810091820.NAA24888@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 10:53:05 -0700
> From: Michael Motyka <mmotyka@lsil.com>
> Subject: Re: Something else...

> >> I think freedom comes from order and knowing what to do with that
> >> freedom comes from chaos. 
> >
> > Freedom comes from understanding what one can do standing alone,
> > naked, in the middle of a wilderness. Everything else is a
> > compromise of that.
> 
> I was thinking more along the lines of : an animal that has literal
> freedom spends 99.9% of its time looking for food and avoiding
> predators. The order we impose upon our lives by being social animals
> give us a more satisfying type of freedom that is derived from leisure. 

Actualy most animals spend 60% or more asleep, only about 10% looking for
food (there are exceptions here for the smaller herbivores because of
scaling issues related to metabolism). The current estimate is that, for
example humans, in the wild spend only about 8 hours out of 40 is spent
looking for food.

> What I see as the real problem is that as the degree of order is
> increased the society becomes more like an anthill.

I agree, but I think it's a function of the form of government and not the
institution of government itself. A large part of it, which I've stated many
times, is that the vast majority of systems that people develop assume the
people are plug-n-play. That's a major shortcoming in  my mind. I believe
democracy has a chance to subvert that shortcoming but only if the
participants aren't primarily motivated by compromise, a base human
expression.

> Which I consider the
> perfect example of a bioengineered police state.

I'll agree biology has a lot to do with it if it's not recognized for the
shortcoming it is.

> Kind of what corporate
> America would like all of us citizens to be - predictable controllable
> unquestioning undeviating uncreative underthethumb consumer units.

The 'rational consumer' axiom in traditional economics is a perfect example
of how this becomes entrenched (even when it isn't accurate). That's sort of
the problem with government in that they want these absolute limits on
behaviour, yet so few behaviours are absolutely good or bad. Law sucks when
it deals with exceptions. Another aspect of failure in our current system is
that the law and its practitioners aren't unbiased, they have a vested in
interest in the outcome, not the principles.

> it's in process I don't think it's a conspiratorial effort either -
> it's more the result of widespread bad behavior. I'm rather stunned at
> the blatant disregard our representatives display for the basic
> liberties the moment these liberties seem inconvenient.

Your preaching to the choir...

One aspect that seems under appreciated is that as the population grows the
number of people who hold a particular view grow. Since their behaviours are
influenced by those views it begins to be expressed as a social movement
(perhaps not in the traditional view ala yippies for example) and even a
political one. The collective results of all these little actions can in
fact behave in a manner that is quite 'conpiracy' like.


    ____________________________________________________________________
 
       To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice.

                                                     Confucius

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage@ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------