From: "Albert P. Franco, II" <apf2@apf2.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:23:15 +0800
To: Soren <sorens@workmail.com>
Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the  Foregone(fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5F152E6E8E6FD21195DF00104B2425AD02B276@yarrowbay.chaffeyhomes.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981110224329.008bc5b0@apf2.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched

 At 09:33 10/11/98 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>>
Albert P. Franco, II wrote: 
I've been lurking on this thread for a while, and I am amazed by the level 
of utopist muck that is being spewed here by you. 

Without some government the Bad Guys will be the only ones with anything. 
It is only with the threat of losing their power that leaders do good. If 
they had no power which could be lost or taken they will always do what's 
best for them in the short term, which is usually to shit on the peons. 
Dictators (like Pinochet and Gates) do their dirty deeds because they feel 
no need to placate the masses.
And the Bad Guys don't have everything already? Are they in any danger of losing their power? 
<<<<

They don't have my car, my computers, or my house and other belongings. They not in as much danger as they should be, but they can be impeached and loose elections.

>>>>
This anarcho-capitalist spew is so much crap that the bullshit indicators 
are blaring at top volume. If the people can't control a constitutional 
government, known for having peacefully free elections for over two hundred 
years, then how the hell do think you can convince somebody that the people 
are going to be able to control warlords and monopolies. It's called, "You 
don't like it? Bang, Bang, you're dead!"
And this differs from living in in a 1st world state, how? 
<<<<

Where do you live? I know LA and some other big cities are pretty bad, but come on no one seriously believes that under "civilized" governments (1st World State) that this is ubiquitously the way it is. Under the anarcho-capilist system proposed it would be the ubiquitous state of affairs.

>>>>
Try to lift yourself out of the bullshit of your theory and give us at 
least one REAL example (current or historic) of a large scale, long lasting 
anarcho-capitalist society. Hippie communes are too small, and make sure 
it's capitalistic. If you can't think of one in the next year or so then 
come back and tell us.
Is there some specific reason they need to be large scale or long lasting?  By definition, anarcho-capitalism is constantly changing -- perhaps as much as between extreme individualism, to the current state of feudalism that has pervaded the world since the birth of agrarianism. 
<<<<

Peace and prosperity require stability. If your system is ever changing then there will never be long term investments and thus no new technologies or products. Barbarism (anarcho-free market-etc. but never capitalism since capital investments are only made where a return can be guaranteed) will never serve as a basis for investment and development since there is no way to reasonably expect to be around long enough to get the pay back.

If it isn't large scale it's just more bullshit on the already smoldering pile dumped on this list to date. Because it works for twelve people in an isolated environment in no way signifies that it will scale to level of a nation.

Sorry, if ain't large scale and long lasting it ain't real.

>>>>
I agree with you that most utopianist ranting here carries a strong whiff of frustration and steam venting.  To those anarcho-capitalists, I recommend the course of action I took 25 years ago.  If you don't like the state you live in, don't patronize it.  There are many save harbors in the world that better approach your ideals, and are more amenable to change, than the Union of Socialist Americans. 

"Educate, don't agitate". 


<<<<

I left the good ol' USA too. I now live in a European country with a strong socialistic government and I actually find very little interference in my day to day life. In fact there seems to be a much higher awareness that each individual is responsible for his and her actions. At the very least there aren't as many lawyers claiming everyone is a victim of something or another (ie. too hot coffee, slippery floors, home owners that shot the poor intruder who didn't get a warning first, etc.) 

Ain't no where perfect, anarcho-whatever was done about 4000 years ago, I generally prefer to look forward...

APF