From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:55:29 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: RE: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd)
Message-ID: <199811100336.VAA15683@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> From: "X" <xasper8d@lobo.net>
> Subject: RE: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force (fwd)
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:31:00 -0700

> Sorry, everyone, for this crap coming up, but JIM CHOATE wants you all to
> see it...
> 
> Jim,
> 
> You keep reposting this to the cpunx list, and I keep trying to discuss it
> with you in private.

I have zero desire to discuss this in private. If you don't want to discuss
it here then we won't discuss it.

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the gist of your system was a two-tiered
> payment schedule where Group A could be called TaxPayers and Group B could
> be called NON-Payers.  Right?
> 
> And basically, Group A would get all of the benefits that a fully paid
> membership would entail, right?  Secondly, Group B would "not pay taxes" and
> would NOT be entitled to any benefits save for on a pay-as-you-go type
> arrangement.  Right?
> 
> What USGov't services do you include in your proposal?

Each and every one of them, except the criminal courts. I would include the
state and local government as well.

Perhaps you could think of it as a discount card....;)

> (feel free to jump in with some more.)

You're doin' fine.

> U.S. Mail services

If you don't show them your tax receipt before Jan. 1 of each year they will
remove your address from their delivery list until you do so. If you don't
either pick it up there in person within 10 days, every 10 days it goes back.
The Constitution says they have to deliver your mail. It doesn't say they
have to drop it on your front step.

Personaly I think this would be a great position for those folks who have
learning disabilities but still need a job. The irritation factor alone would
be worth it...;)

> Common defense

Already covered that one.

> Air traffic controlling

When you buy your ticket from a commercial carrier and don't present a tax
receipt your ticket price goes WAY! up.

> roadways and interstates

Already covered them too.

> Food and Drug Administration approvals

When you buy food or drugs if you don't present your tax receipt then you
pay the full price for foods and drugs.

> Federally mandated minimum wage

I also covered this one already.

> automobile safety standards

See the one above.

> Is your tax progressive or regressive?

Depends on what *you* mean by progressive or regressive. Personaly I would
go for a flat tax rate but a scaled mechanism would be ok. It isn't the
particular scaling mechanism that I dislike about our current tax system.

> If I'm right so far (which I may or may not be) then we have to talk about
> your definition of "paying taxes."

Taking a percentage of your monetary income each period (say a year) and
sending it to an address. That address is the suitable tax agent who then
distributes the monies into the appropriate account according to law. The
suitable civic agencies can then draw funds according to law.

> Does a single woman raising five kids
> and paying a small mortgage making  $14,200 per year pay taxes?  No,
> unfortunately for her, she doesn't.  I guess that puts her smack into GROUP
> B!  Well, that's simple enough!

Not at all, simply because she is unfortunate enough not to have the income
necessary to participate without causing harm to herself and her family
(perhaps) is no reason to deny her those rights. I'd give her a receipt that
would look just like anybody elses. Now if she didn't want to apply for it
by sending in the paperwork that's her decision. From a government
perspective she is participating fully in the process, it isn't the amount
of money (as foreign as that may be to eco-anarchists and free-market
mavens) that is the issue but the willingness to participate. Nobody is
forcing her to do anything, it's all of her own volition.

> We'll deny her the creature comforts of the
> list above until she chips in her proportionate cost, right?  When that
> libertarian bitch tries to send mail, we'll charge her more!  WHen she gets
> on the freeway, we'll toll her!  When she buys a medicine for her snot-nosed
> urchin, we'll give her the stuff that ain't been FDA approved, right?
> RIGHT!  And, if ever we should need to attack another country (or defend
> ours, as you pointed out) SHE'LL happily volunteer to serve (as I remember
> your post) in order to protect her TAX-FREE STATUS.

No, that isn't right. As to participating in the military, no I didn't give
anyone a choice. I said *draft*, you didn't give up your citizenship when
you gave up your tax participation. Now if you want to give that up to then
we won't draft you but you'll be one broke puppy trying to pay all the
bills as a non-tax-participant and a non-citizen.

> As you said to me, she's probably just looking for someone to shoulder her
> part of the load, right?

I said to you?

> You said it would be easy to implement, right?  I don't see that it would be
> easy at all.

As hard as this may be to take, your ability to see it doesn't effect it's
viability.

> Once again, I apologize for the OFF TOPIC nature of this, but MR. COHATE
> (freudian slip, or merely coincidence?  you be the judge!) insisted on
> duking this out in public.

Um, actualy YOU responded to my post. I didn't start this with you.


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