From: "Jean-Francois Avon" <jf_avon@citenet.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:26:11 +0800
To: "Toronto Star" <Martin.P@parl.gc.ca>
Subject: Search and Seizure abuse...
Message-ID: <199811160059.TAA27744@cti06.citenet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Note to elected officials: please inquire on this event an reply.
Thanks 

JFA


========== forwarded from the Canadian Firearms Digest, V2 #701 ========
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:23:49 -0600
From: Marstar <marstar@hawk.igs.net>
Subject: Re: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #699

I WOULD LIKE TO ADD MY TWO CENTS WORTH, THIS IS A VERY SENSITIVE
SUBJECT WITH US....

1. Ask to see the search warrant.
NFA: The searchers are required to SHOW you a COPY of the warrant or
TELL you what is in it before executing it, and LEAVE you a copy of it
when they leave..

100% RIGHT, BUT WHEN THE PERSON POINTING THE MP-5 AT YOU TELLS YOU
TO SHUT-UP AND MOVE AWAY, WHAT WOULD SUGGEST ??

2. Ask the person in possession of the warrant to identify himself and
all of those with him and to indicate whether those persons are
authorized to aid in the execution of the warrant.

WITH 40 PEOPLE ALREADY TEARING THINGS APART AND AN ENTIRE SWAT
TEAM ON HAND HOLDING YOU AND YOUR EMPLOYEES AT GUNPOINT, THEY REFUSE TO
IDENTIFY THEMSELVES, HOW SHOULD WE IMPRESS THEM WITH OUR DEMANDS ??

TO ADD A BIT OF CHALLENGE TO THE AFFAIR MOST OF THE PEOPLE WERE IN
CIVILIAN CLOTHES AND WORE NO ID....MOST OF THE TRUCK AND CARS WERE
UNMARKED.... HAD WE NOT TAKEN PICTURES WE WOULD NOT EVEN KNOW WHO HAD
"VISITED" US.


3. Request time to review the warrant and to obtain advice with
respect to the appropriate course of conduct.

EXCELLENT IDEA, WHEN I REACHED FOR THE PHONE TO CALL OUR LAWYER
TWO OF THE SWAT TEAM SMEMBERS WITH MP-5s POINTED AT ME INSTRUCTED ME "TO
GET THE HELL AWAY FROM THE PHONE" THE FACT THAT I TOLD THEM I WANTETO
CALL MY LAWYER DID NOT SEEM TO IMPRESS THAT AT ALL....

AS FOR HAVING TIME TO REVIEW THE WARRANT, THEY DID NOT SEEM INTERESTED IN
HEARING ANY ARGUMENTS ON THE SUBJECT....

IS THERE SOME OTHER APPROACH I SHOULD HAVE USED ??

4. Read the warrant carefully to determine: the premises covered

WE ADVISED THE OFFICER IN CHARGE THAT THIS WAS INCORRECT...."NOT
IMPORTANT" WAS THE REPLY

the specific documents or objects it covers

WE ALSO ADVISED THEM OF THE ERRORS IN THIS SECTION...."IT DOES NOT
MATTER" REPLIED THE ONE IN CHARGE OF THE RAID....

 the alleged offence(s) subject of the warrant

NEW:  Read the DATE and TIMES that the warrant authorizes search. 

THESE POINTS WERE CORRECT....

Often, the warrant is invalid because they were supposed to do the
search YESTERDAY, or EARLIER TODAY, and entry can then be legally
refused.  CC s.  488 forbids the execution of a search warrant AT
NIGHT, unless "(a) the justice [who issues it] is satisfied that there
are reasonable grounds for it to be executed by night, (b) the
reasonable grounds are included in the Information [laid before the
justice to get the warrant], AND (c) the warrant authorizes that it be
executed by night."

5. At the same time that the warrant is being reviewed, instruct
someone to make the following calls (if not already made):
legal counsel 

I INDICATED ABOVE WHAT HAPPENED WHEN WE
ATTEMPTED TO USE THE PHONE, WE WERE SOME TIME INTO THE SEARCH BEFORE MY
WIFE WAS ABLE TO CALL OUR LAWYER....

individuals named in the warrant whose offices are to be searched
each should be advised that the search is pending and cautioned
that they must not remove, alter or destroy any documents or other material
in their offices.

HEY THAT MANY PEOPLE CARRYING SUB MACHINE GUNS,
SHOTGUNS, STUN GRENADES, HANDGUNS, ETC, ETC....HAVE MY INSTANT OBEDIENCE
ASSURED....
>NFA: ADD the local news media

GOOD LUCK, IN OUR CASE THEY CLOSED OFF OUR ROADWAY AND TURNED AWAY
EVERYBODY WHO SHOWED UP....
FEW PEOPLE APPRECIATE THE "HOSPITALITY" OF ARMED POLICE AT YOU GATE....

>NFA: ADD NFA HQ: (403)439-1394 or NFA- (add prov.branch # here

WE WERE UNABLE TO CONTACT THE NFA FOR SEVERAL HOURS....


>NFA NOTE:  If told that you must sit down and not use the phone, ask:
"Am I under arrest?"  If the answer is "No, not YET!" then no one has
any right to TOUCH you, or to hinder your use of the telephone. 

WE TRIED THAT APPROACH BUT I'M A CHICKEN AT HEART, TWO MP-5s
POINTED AT MY MID-SECTION MADE ME THAT WAY....

 If an officer DOES touch you, then ask again: "Am I under arrest?"  If
the answer is no, then say:  "In that case, take your hand off me -- or I
will arrest YOU for assault."  [Yes, you ARE authorized to do that by
Canadian law, CC s. 494(1) and (3)].

6. Do not "agree" that the search can be expanded beyond the limits
described in the warrant. 

IN OUR CASE THEY DID ABSOLUTELY AS THEY PLEASED, THEY HAD GUNS AND
WE DID NOT....

7. Do not answer any substantive questions.
NFA: More people are convicted from what they SAY than from any other
cause.  You have a right to SILENCE.  USE IT.  Unless you know as much
about firearms law as the NFA does, you have NO IDEA whether or not
you ARE guilty - -- because you may SEEM to be guilty, and yet the NFA
can often tell your lawyer why you are NOT.  

YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT....

8. Do not attempt to impede, physically or ot otherwise, the person
executing the warrant.  NFA: That is obstruction, and a criminal offence.

AND IF YOU HAVE A PUMPED UP BUNCH OF PEOPLE CARRYING AUTOMATIC
WEAPONS WITH FINGERS ON THE TRIGGER DON'T EVEN THINK OF GIVING THEM A
PROBLEM.... THESE PEOPLE WILL SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER....THEY
PROVED THAT ON A NUMBER OF RAIDS IN THE PAST FEW YEARS....

9. If any documents exist in respect of which solicitor-client
privilege may exist, identify the documents and their location and
indicate to the search officer that the documents are subject to
solicitor-client privilege and that you require that the appropriate
procedures be followed to protect the privilege.

OH YEAH, THAT IS GAURANTEED TO IMPRESS THEM, HELL WE EVEN HAVE
PICTURES OF AN OFFICER STEALING DOCUMENTS....

10. Keep an accurate log (or copy) of all documents seized.   NFA: the
searchers are required to file an "Information" with the court to get
a search warrant.  Unless the justice blocks it, the "Information" is
a public document. After executing the warrant, the searchers must
file a "Return" with the court, explaining what they did with the
warrant and listing what they took.  SO: After being searched, go to
the court that issued the warrant and request a copy of the
Information and Return relating to that warrant.  You should be able
to get them for the cost of photocopying, and they are VALUABLE.

IN OUR CASE THEY SEALED THE WARRANT THEREBY DENYING ACCESS TO ALL
WHO ASKED.... 

THEY WILL GIVE YOU WHATEVER RECEIPTS THEY FEEL LIKE GIVING YOU....WHEN
THEY PLEASE....


ALL OF THE ABOVE INFORMATION IS ACCURATE AND A MATTER OF COURT RECORD.
WE CHALLENGED THE WARRANTS AND THEY WERE DECLARED ILLEGAL....
WE CHALLENGED THE RAID UNDER TWO SECTIONS OF THE CANADIAN CHARTER, WE
WON....


I THINK WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS "DON'T EXPECT THINGS TO GO DOWN IN A
SMOOTH AND ORGANIZED MANNER, THEIR PEOPLE ARE RUNNING ON ADRENALIN, YOU
ARE UPSET AND NERVOUS, THE HEAD MAN IS TRYING TO IMPRESS HIS MEN,
DON'T BE A HERO, DON'T DO ANYTHING STUPID, LIVE TO FIGHT
ANOTHER DAY.

SORRY FOR DRAGGING ON BUT EVEN AFTER 3.1/2 YEARS THIS EVENT STILL HAS ME
FURIOUS.

JOHN F ST AMOUR







Definition:  FASCISM: n.:  a political and economic movement, strongly nationalistic, magnifying the rights of the state as opposed to those of the individual, in which industry, though remaining largely under private ownership, and all administrative
political units, are controlled by a strong central government.
        -------------------------------------------------
"One of the ordinary modes by which tyrants accomplish their purpose, without resistance, is by disarming the people and making it an offense to keep arms".  - Joseph Story, U.S. Supreme Court Justice.
        -------------------------------------------------
the German gun control laws were enacted by the "liberal" Weimar Republic government that preceded Hitler, and were a strong aid to his coming to power -- because they disarmed Hitler's opponents, and Hitler's adherents ignored them -- as criminals have always ignored gun control laws.

Disarming the public is a frequent first step toward dictatorships and genocides.  Once the disarming is complete, the public is helpless against those who have the guns.        -------------------------------------------------
"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore 
 deprive them of their arms."
                                 -- Aristotle, "Politics"
-------------------------------------------------

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