From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:37:11 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd)
Message-ID: <199811120005.SAA26844@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:23:43 -0500
> From: Petro <petro@playboy.com>
> Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone
>  (fwd)

> 	So leaders should be able to do whatever they want within their own
> borders w/out the possibility of being held responsible for what they do to
> citizens of other countries who just happen to be visiting?

Absolutely. It's what is meant by indipendent nation. It's between the leaders
and the citizens.

> 	What about rule by law?

What about it? I don't believe in one world governments, it's a bad idea.
Within the confines of a given country there should be a rule of law, that
rule should not necessarily be the same as any other country. And other
countries should most definitely NOT have a say in it.

Do you want Germany having a say in our laws (for example)?

> 	That was not the point, the point was about black market goods.

No, the point was about freedom of choice.

> 	So then you admit you were lying about the deaths and blindness
> being the cause of regulation, since you claimed it happend in the late
> 1800's & early  1900's, but the regualtion and taxing went all the way back
> to the middle ages?

Taxing went on, the regulation of alcohol production didn't occur in this
country until after the Civil War. Taxing alcohol is a whole different issue
than regulating the quality and methods of production, and is most certainly
not equivalent to regulations on where it might be sold and under what
conditions.

> 	It prevents businesses from using the Press to manipulate the
> government into doing something about a problem that doesn't exist.

No it doesn't. The press is a business, and if you don't think they don't
try to manipulate more than the government you're in for a surprise. There
are cases of the press being manipulated because of the impact of certain
story presentation lines on their income.

> >whistle-blowers and 'social do-gooders' to get their message out (unless
> >they're well heeled and don't mind loosing it all in the process).
> 
> 	That is already/still the case. You piss off the wrong people, you
> die.

Actualy not, there are a variety of whistle-blower laws on the book at every
level. Also the number of whistle-blowers who are killed currently are
pretty small (name 3). A lot of them loose the jobs they blew the whistle on
but that is many cases is to be expected (after all if the issue is important
enough the business will cease to exist).

> >put any sort of limit on its expression.
> 
> 	It INHERENTLY recognizes it, and inherently limits it.

No it doesn't, it does not in any way prevent abuse and further provides no
mechanism for the restitution or correction of that abuse.

> 	No one has the power.
> 
> 	THAT'S THE POINT.

No, the point is that whoever is the most ruthless will get ahead. If you
don't think that is power then you should sit and think.

> 	Some agendas can't be pushed thru business, or at least not the
> same way.

Such as? Greed and profit always can be pushed through business, it's what
they do.

> 	If I got them legally, they were a legal commodity, if I dispose of
> them legally, they move from the "white" market, to the "black" market.

Which requires that yot mislead the doctor as to why you want them.

> 	The fact that not everything on the black market was stolen ISN'T
> the point, the point is that there can be things on the black market that
> aren't stolen, and aren't inherently illegal (tomatoes, vicadan, alcohol)
> but are still part of the black market because of the nature of the market
> and the legal system.

Why would anyone buy a commenly available item on the black market when they
could go to the corner store and purchase it? They won't. People who are
involved in the black market are there for profit. If they go down to the
store and buy say tomatoes at $2/lb. whey would they sell them to you at
$1.75/lb? They wouldn't. The alcohol and cigarettes you buy on the black
market lack tax stamps are have bogus stamps. Why? Becuase the cost is much
lower without the added tax and legitimate distribution expenses.

> 	FUCKING BULLSHIT. YOu JUST brought introduced your thesis that even
> if most stuff isn't actually stolen, then it is bought with money gained by
> theft in your last post on this issue.

 Before that you were maintaining
> that everything on the black market had to be stolen, and in fact this

No, go back - I never said that. I have continously said that the majority
of items on the black market are related to a stolen service or product.
I stand by that statement.

I'd go on but it's been a long day and I'm in no mood for this petty
bickering.


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