From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:00:05 +0800
To: "Albert P. Franco, II" <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981205220239.006a17c8@209.204.247.83>
Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981207142627.00c9eb30@mail.well.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Many libertarians would not object if local state law punished rapists or
burglars by sending them to prison with labor requirements.

So if it is an acceptable punishment in principle, the question then
becomes who should qualify.

The problem with Tim's analysis is that if we extend the punishment to
anyone who's benefited from government tax-n-spending that libertarians
oppose, it's hard to find anyone *not* to put in the workcamp. Anyone who
takes advantage of public transportation (like the Metro here in DC), or
federally-funded interstates, etc. could conceivably qualify. And what
about all those folks with unconstitutional federal student loans?

And fundamental fairness principles suggest that punishment should not be
limited to welfare for individuals. Why shouldn't corporate welfare qualify?

Tim owns substantial shares of Intel Corp. stock, and Intel is a prime
beneficiary of corporate welfare. Check out last month's Time magazine
cover story at: http://www.time.com/magazine

Should just the directors of Intel, or also the shareholder owners be
punished?

A more moderate approach that seems more logically consistent might be to
limit punishment to state actors and agents (assuming you agree with this
concept of vengeance to begin with). There's a big difference between an
FBI agent engaging in what he might occasionally suspect to be
unconstitutional searches and busts and someone who picks up an occasional
unemployment check.

-Declan



At 10:02 PM 12-5-98 +0100, Albert P. Franco, II wrote:
>Tim must be having a "bad hair" day. He actually mentioned sending people
>to Labor Camps. That sounds so UN-Libertarian, I have to chuckle. I'm
>chuckling because I wouldn't want to think you actually believe in this
>very Hitleresque rant.
>
>Or is some FED spoofing Tim and sending "threatening" material in his name?
>In which case...lock and load, Tim. They're coming to get you!
>
>APF
>
>>and, have drifted into the camp I will dub "the vengeance
>>libertarians." Summarized, roughly, as:
>>
>>"You've stolen my property, you've imprisoned my friends, you've passed
>>laws making us all criminals, you've started wars to enrich your
>>military-industrial complex friends, and you're corrupt bastards. You can
>>forget about some kind of "libertarian amnesty." It's going to be payback
>>time, with at least hundreds of thousands of statist judges, politicians,
>>cops, soldiers, and other such persons going to the gallows. Payback time.
>>Welfare recipients are going to have to pay back all that they have stolen,
>>with compounded interest. Out of their pockets, or while in labor camps.
>>Payback time."
>>
>>
>>--Tim May
>>
>