From: Oliver Seiler <oseiler@unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 94 16:28:08 PST
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Oh No! Nazis on the Nets
In-Reply-To: <9402102154.AA09132@deathstar.iaks.ira.uka.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.05.9402101530.C12236-d100000@unixg.ubc.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Although I think this thread should end, I can't let this go by...

On Thu, 10 Feb 1994, Hadmut Danisch wrote:

> If a murderer tries to kill you and you have a gun, you will shoot
> back, I assume, even if you use the same method as him.

There is a clear difference here, but we have to get some definitions
cleared up. The other person isn't a murderer until you are dead. What
he is doing (I'll assume it's a guy...) is attempting to end your life.
To prevent this is your choice (most will choose to protect themselves).

Hell, even if I didn't have a gun, I'd fight back. A gun just makes
it more convenient (note also that unless your death is evident, as
opposed to just being bruised say, then killing the guy outright
would to me be wrong. Just shoot his kneecaps, or maybe just in the
gut, although this is likely to be fatal as well, but then, maybe the
guy should have been a bit smarter...)

My point is that initiating violence and protecting yourself from
violence (using "violence") are two different things...

> > You can fight Naziism by spreading information about the evils of
> > Naziism. 
> 
> I wish it were true. They were trying this for many years. We all thought
> that Naziism will never come back because the lesson (WW II) was big enough.
> But it didn't work as you can see in the news magazines. 

Unfortunately I don't think it was really tried in Germany (or in most
places). The events of that era, the ideologies, were swept under the
rug, to be forgotten, not to be talked about... This does not make
for education...

> What do you believe, is it a good idea to publish software like PGP
> if it is used by the Nazis to organize their work?

No, I don't think it's a good idea. However, that is not saying I would
support an effort to suppress their ideas. I do exactly what I do with
all other ideologies I think are a bunch of crap. Don't adopt them and
retaliate when it affects me personally...

> > You can fight it by vigorously prosecuting those who commit
> > acts of violence. 
> 
> If you can get them...

Always a problem. However, this is much preferable to trying to get them
before they actually do anything. This tends to turn into a witch
hunt and more innocent people are burned...

> In this discussion "Nazi" is everything from an idea to settings buildings
> on fire. If I say allow, they say I would allow killing people. If I forbid,
> they say I forbid to publish ideas. Tell me what is "Nazi" in your argument.

A "Nazi" was a member of the National Socialist Party of Germany during the
first half of this century (and by the laws of the time, that meant
just about everybody. Everybody except for the "races" which those in
charge found to be "unpure", where "pure" could be defined as some
sort of ideal "master race" which those in charge thought the Nazi party
was... Very circular arrangement really...) At the time in Germany
it was a complement to be called a National Socialist. Now however it
is a very loaded insult to most people, although some still find the
"endearing" rhetoric about "master" races and such to still be
attractive, hence the neo-Nazi...

That is what the word "Nazi" means to me...

> > > Seen from Germany, american presidents elections look like a mixture
> > > of a football game and a tv show.

That's what sells the average American...

I don't expect it last much longer though...

> > Yes, but that is a statement that the press in the U.S. is bad, not
> > that it is unfree. Freedom and quality are orthogonal.
> 
> Untrue. A press without freedom can't be good. And if your press is bad
> and not interested in publishing anything real, then of course you don't
> need to control it. But this is neither freedom nor quality.

You seem to be watching the wrong media. TV is a controlled media, by the
FCC, and the large cable corporations. Public broadcasting tends to be
more informative... Most TV though is a wasteland (and if I remember
from my last trip to Germany in '87, I found it's TV selection to be
worse... The only thing I liked was that commercials weren't put on
during shows...)

Most of the interesting press is in print, since there are far fewer
regulations (since one isn't broadcasting over "public" frequencies).
And it is also far cheaper to put stuff into print...

> > > In Germany I can get my Cryptosoftware from whereever I want,
> > 
> > Actually, you can do that here, too. We just cant send the software
> > overseas.

Well, you're not "supposed" to. Really it is as easy as sending e-mail
to someone...

> I can publish everything about Cryptography and publish it everywhere
> over the world.

Blame it on the paranoid US government (read, the NSA)...

> I can publish newpapers with nude girls on the front. Is this possible
> in your country?

Must be, since I often have seen them in various "adult" stores. You can't
put them on "public" display, not without risk of being sued by some
irate parent...

I agree though that sex is generally handled better in Europe than in
North America... Very prudish society (both Canada, where I am, and in
the US)

> As far as I know in your country a lot of things are controlled by
> religious groups. Is this freedom?

How do you mean controlled? Lot's of things are "controlled" by Jewish
people, depending on whom you ask. The banking folks seem to control
the banks pretty well. That store down the street where I buy milk is
controlled by somebody pretty good too... Oooh aah...

Am I "controlled"? Who knows. Who cares? I'm happy, but then so are the
vast majority of people in Singapore, which is far less free in
many ways than either of the two countries under discussion...

> Hadmut

-Oliver

| Oliver Seiler          + Erisian Development Group +  Amiga Developer  +
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