From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:15:33 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Respect for privacy != Re: exposure=deterence?
In-Reply-To: <199601190919.KAA10339@utopia.hacktic.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.960119110051.468A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


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On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, Anonymous (signed We Jurgar Din, allegedly
0x21B699E1, not on MIT key server) wrote: 

> I'm not. Maybe *you* should be more suspicious of the guy getting
> paid $100K of direct government money to manage a national 
> campaign of low-key terror than you should of the private 
> businessman unable to pay himself because he *must* pay his 
> employees and the government doesn't leave him enough for his 
> own paycheck. This last is a *lot* more common than the "private 
> businessman getting millions of dollars in government subsidies."

Er, yes. And I am. Struggling businessmen are also a lot more common than 
guys and gals getting paid direct and indirect government money for high-
key terror and murder, of which there's a lot. What's your point?
 
> > I think we're fundamentally asking the wrong question. I only 
> > see relative power. I'd estimate that Bill Gates is more 
> > powerful than Fidel Castro in  many respects. He's certainly a 
> > lot more powerful than your average postal clerk. 
> 
> "Looking for pow'r... in all the wrong places, (la-tee-dah)..."
> Admit it, Rich, you only see harmful power where you want to see 
> it, and that isn't in government -- it is in private hands, 
> particularly *corporate* hands. 

Governments and religions of all kinds have killed more people than
anything else besides old age and disease. There's no denying that. But
who has more influence over most people's daily lives?

What are the instruments of government, and for what interests is
government an instrument? Isn't it a good tactic to go after lazy or
stupid corporations friendly with the government who are providing poor
tools injurious to personal privacy and security?  [Timed essay, 30
points. Use both sides of the CRT if necessary.  Spelling counts.]

> Geez, but you'd think that 
> left-handed university cookie cutter would have gotten dulled and 
> broken by now, and that they'd have fashioned a new one.

For whatever it's worth, I'm right-handed.

I see you use public key cryptography, which like many good things was
developed at a left-handed university with great respect for academic
freedom. You might try visiting one to see what they're like. 
 
> I'd estimate that the Postmaster General is more powerful than 
> Fidel Castro in many respects. He's certainly a lot more powerful 
> than your average private businessman.

No, he's got a sinecure with a common carrier that doesn't mean much. If
you meant that the folks who would intercept your mail if you're
"suspected" are more powerful than Castro, I might agree, but that's not
the Postmaster General. He has no power to order or stop that. 

I'll certainly grant you that there is a conspiracy and a secret
government (broadly defined), but not everyone paid by the government is
in on it, and not everyone involved is in the government. 

> We Jurgar Din
> (that will have to suffice: I do not yet live in a free country)
> 
> +"The battle, Sir, is not to the strong alone. It is to the+
> +vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, Sir, we have no +
> +election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now  +
> +too late to retire from the contest." -Patrick Henry 1775 +

While I firmly support the right to anonymonity, I find this juxtaposition
ironic. 

I do hope that you are speaking out on the record as well. Your "Indecent
Garbage" piece, <199601190944.KAA10937@utopia.hacktic.nl>, was excellent,
but you can't get it published widely unless you're willing to put your
"real life" John Hancock or Patrick Henry on it. 

Gratuitous use of pseudonymity can be counterproductive. Now nobody's
going to be able to use your "bar-coded garbage" essay without being 
suspected of being you, which I doubt is what you want.

Is anyone going to quote you in the future, as you quote Patrick Henry?

I helped get Sameer quoted in PC Week and InfoWorld. Not exactly the way
we'd all like, but it does point people who otherwise wouldn't think twice
about crypto and privacy to www.c2.org. 

My 3 1/2 years in the "cookie cutter" were mostly a study of revolutions
betrayed. First the Bolsheviks and their later rampage through Eastern
Europe (I have a couple of close friends from Budapest, Praha, Bratislava,
and Shanghai), then when that died the Cuban, Sandinista, Contra, Sendero,
and Mexican. 

The only revolution I can think of that did not *completely* betray its
principles was the American War of Independence, which wasn't really a
revolution at all but a secession from a tyrannical regime. Part of the
reason it did well was that remoteness and bravery led those involved to
stand up for what they believed in. You can only go so far with
subversion. (It also helped that the Colonial goals were very modest. Yet
they still ended up with the Whiskey Rebellion, a great expansion of the
practice of slavery, and the Native American genocide in short order.)

Get yourself a broader education and elevate the culture. Mario Vargas
Llosa, Boris Pasternak, and Milan Kundera would be particularly good for
you. 

- -rich

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