From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:43:59 +0800
To: perry@piermont.com
Subject: Re: Java
In-Reply-To: <199606041306.JAA08943@jekyll.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <199606042058.NAA19741@netcom19.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



maybe Java is about a generation gap in programming languages...??

>Bill Frantz writes:
>> At 10:22 PM 6/3/96 -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
>> >I've been rather hard on Java here lately.
>> 
>> I'll say.  You have also ignored some of Java's other features.  Machine
>> independence is probably the most important.
>
>Many languages are machine independent. Thats hardly a new feature.

you don't get it, as others have pointed out repeatedly. you conveniently
ignore Frantz' points about the well-known difficulties of porting C. there
is a big difference in what is conneted by the word "portable". 
if it take a zillion different makefile rules to create the "same"
program on different machines, is that "portable"? isn't that
defeating the purpose somewhat? c is "sort of" portable. it is
"in theory" portable. Java is portable "in theory and practice".

>However, your point is taken. Java is a neat little language in many
>ways. However, that isn't cause enough for literally fifty books on
>the subject to be on display, including breathless ones proclaiming
>"Tips from experienced Java programmers!" as if there are any in the
>world at this point. There are dozens of cute little languages in the
>world -- scheme, smalltalk, etc, etc.

a little clue to you Perry, there are so many Java books because there
is such a huge market for them. I always thought you were an 
anarchocapitalist and in favor of "letting the market decide". in a
sense you are arguing with the market, it seems, in much the same
way a liberal might say, "why are all you greedy businessmen hyping
your railroads so much?!?!?"  however I fully grant you that Java has been
the most hyped computer language on the planet. (but then again, I
didn't hear you whining when Intel started their "intel inside" 
campaign). I think what you are seeing is that people are excited
by the possibilities. the public has grasped the message behind Java,
which at this point is more about potentialities. its like saying,
"who is the next marc andreesson?" 

the problem appears to be simply that you are annoyed that other people are
excited about java, and you seem not to like excitement. you don't
like hype. well, personally, I think the hype is pretty damn amusing.
the world couldn't have given the slightest damn about geek computer
programmers say 5 years ago, but after the internet and Netscape, Yahoo,
and Java it's suddenly incredibly trendy. I think its quite enjoyable.
I suppose if I was over 40 and worked in a conservative wall street firm,
I'd have a totally different view. maybe Java is all about a generation
gap in computing. hey!! the first language that the "older generation"
hates. sounds like a good reason to go after it, sort of like rock-n-roll
and Woodstock suddenly being aged and uncool.

>I mean, with all the "Teach yourself Java in 21 days" and company
>books coming out, you would think you were dealing witht he major
>application programming language for the world instead of something
>that at the moment is used for almost nothing more interesting than
>fake scrolling LED sign applets.

actually, the quality is not all that great in all of them, I agree. 
I thought for example Van Der Linden's "Just Java" is a pretty weak one. 
it has paper airplane instructions in parts of it. but hey, maybe
again its a generation gap thing. I bet I would have really enjoyed
the book and thought it "way cool" in my teens. <g>

>Since that doesn't exist, it isn't an option for my users. It is not,
>in any case, my obligation to make Java secure. I'm not the one hyping
>it.

no, but you are the one ranting at it. why? it is not Java's 
obligation to make OSes more secure either!!! @#$%^&*


>You could hand any websurfer a Netscape PGP plugin without much work
>at all, and you could easily build it on lots of platforms. After all,
>look at how many platforms that lowly C code like PGP runs on.

look at the complicated PGP makefiles. count how many MAN MONTHS of additional
testing and work is required merely to deal with the makefiles. count
how many BUGS are due to improper compilations. count how hard it
is to track this kind of thing. count how hard it is to test your
makefiles not given that you have all the zillion different environments
you are supporting immediately available for testing.

every language is about tradeoffs. if you continue to say that C
is better than Java for just about anything, then you clearly are
not saying anything very relevant based on most people's opinions.

why am I arguing with you on this? because while you are usually
a pretty sensible person, you are really way off
base on this one. the world requires a mix of conservatism and
imagination. you've got the conservatism down totally, but the
imagination part you are lacking, and hence your criticism of
java. PM, imagine yourself at the invention of the LAN, or the PC,
or the C language. what would you have said to the designers? 
"you are all boneheads!! what you are doing can't be done!! you
are wasting your time!!"  do you think perhaps that every useful
computing tool that can be invented has already been invented?
hee, hee.