From: Rich Graves <rcgraves@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 18:32:34 -0800 (PST)
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: How many people killed by there own governments (Was: Re: a
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961111182528.00a31d70@rpcp.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <32893307.5B5F@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dale Thorn wrote:
> 
> Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote:
> 
> > Do you have a breakdown of that number? I'm working on one of my
> > thought experiments and am looking for the appropriate stats:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > Deaths by Govts. on "own people"
> 
> >   US Civil War     x M

I believe x is around 2, but it's a rather tortured argument to call 
that "government killing its own people." You had at least two 
governments going at it.

> As a war, not genocide per se, but you could include as many as 100
> million Africans killed in the slave trade, as long as the U.S. Park
> Police don't get dibs on verifying the official count. 

I've heard Farrakhan claim 500 million, but 100 million due to slavery 
and related colonialism seems credible. I also would not call this 
"governments killing their own people." For the most part, it was 
private enterprise. Slave traders were not exactly the cream of the 
intellectual elite.

> You might also include a large number of Chinese "laborers" in
> the 1800's.

The only conceivable connection to "governments killing their own 
people" I can think of is that railroad tycoon Leland Stanford was also 
a Senator at one point.

> >   US Native Americans
> 
> When I was in school in the 1950's and 1960's, the schools said there
> were no more than 3 million N.A.'s here circa 1600 or so.  The
> official count remains controversial.  BTW, since Columbus, the 
> Conquistadores, et al gutted much of Central and South America,
> include them too.

I'd have to ask John Morris on that.

> >   Hitler: Jews     6 M
> >   Hitler: Others   6 M
> 
> I wouldn't even bother with these two. The numbers are not that
> reliable, the topic is still way too hot for open research even
> today, and besides, all sides killed probably 100 million or better
> in WW2, most of them from purely terrorist bombing.  The significance
> of the "Holocaust" should not have been co-opted for commercial
> purposes as it has, but as they say, wishing don't make it so.

My. What a charmer you are. Please share these insights with the 
alt.revisionism crowd at your earliest convenience.

> >   Stalin:         30 M
> 
> 30 million is the "low" count, probably includes "hard" purges and
> identifiable political prisoners and very close associates, and 
> perhaps some family members.  Total unjustifiable non-war homicides on
> the part of the Stalin government (while Stalin in charge) may be 65
> million or thereabouts.

The 30 million figure comes from Robert Conquest, who worked for the 
British government writing anti-Soviet propaganda during and after the 
war. Nobody has ever accused him of underestimating Soviet 
atrocities. But playing rhetorical games with numbers of this magnitude 
is unseemly. I'll leave that to you guys. Suffice to say that Stalin was 
a monster, and Lenin was the same; there are scans of execution orders 
in Stalin's and Lenin's handwriting at 
http://sunsite.unc.edu/expo/soviet.exhibit/collect.html

> >   China: Cult Rev  x M
> 
> Similar comments as above - unjustifiable homicides on the behest of
> the Mao government (while Mao in charge) should be about 65 million.

Actually, the Cultural Revolution mostly enslaved people, rather than 
killing them. To get to 65 million you'd have to include the 
revolutionary and collectivization periods.

> Comment: The Guiness World Records were at one time or another a 
> source for some of this info, as was their original sources.  Do
> expect to see some disinformation thrown into the "real" documents.

Right. The Conspiracy touches everything. Even that authoritative 
historical journal the Guiness Book of Records.

-rich