From: Dale Thorn <dthorn@gte.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:45:41 -0800 (PST)
To: "Joseph M. Reagle Jr." <reagle@rpcp.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: How many people killed by there own governments (Was: Re: a  retort + a comment + a question = [RANT])
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19961111182528.00a31d70@rpcp.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <328832AF.565B@gte.net>
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Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote:
> >With regard to b), governments--primarily through the use of
> >their militaries--have killed, by some counts 170,000,000, men,
> >women and children in this century alone.  Hardly the guardians
> >of freedom, in my opinion.

> Do you have a breakdown of that number? I'm working on one of my thought
> experiments and am looking for the appropriate stats:

[snip]

> Deaths by Govts. on "own people"

>   US Civil War     x M  

As a war, not genocide per se, but you could include as many as 100 million
Africans killed in the slave trade, as long as the U.S. Park Police don't
get dibs on verifying the official count.  You might also include a large
number of Chinese "laborers" in the 1800's.

>   US Native Americans

When I was in school in the 1950's and 1960's, the schools said there were
no more than 3 million N.A.'s here circa 1600 or so.  The official count
remains controversial.  BTW, since Columbus, the Conquistadores, et al
gutted much of Central and South America, include them too.

>   Hitler: Jews     6 M
>   Hitler: Others   6 M

I wouldn't even bother with these two. The numbers are not that reliable,
the topic is still way too hot for open research even today, and besides,
all sides killed probably 100 million or better in WW2, most of them from
purely terrorist bombing.  The significance of the "Holocaust" should
not have been co-opted for commercial purposes as it has, but as they
say, wishing don't make it so.

>   Stalin:         30 M

30 million is the "low" count, probably includes "hard" purges and
identifiable political prisoners and very close associates, and perhaps
some family members.  Total unjustifiable non-war homicides on the part
of the Stalin government (while Stalin in charge) may be 65 million or
thereabouts.

>   China: Cult Rev  x M

Similar comments as above - unjustifiable homicides on the behest of the
Mao government (while Mao in charge) should be about 65 million.

>   France: Rev      x M

Don't know.

Comment: The Guiness World Records were at one time or another a source
for some of this info, as was their original sources.  Do expect to see
some disinformation thrown into the "real" documents.