From: Black Unicorn <unicorn@schloss.li>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:46:23 -0800 (PST)
To: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov@algebra.com>
Subject: Re: Secrecy: My life as a nym. (Was: nym blown?)
In-Reply-To: <199611120414.WAA22624@manifold.algebra.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.94.961113153536.2905B-100000@polaris>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

> Jim McCoy wrote:
> > >Are there other measures which parents could take while their children are
> > >young to get them off to a good start, privacy-wise?
> > 
> > Do not declare your children as dependants.  If you do then you are required
> > to get a SSN for them, but if you are willing to waive the tax savings there
> > is no requirement than children have a SSN.  Not having a handy universal
> > index number like a SSN makes it a lot harder for people to accumulate
> > statistics on your kids.
> 
> This is an interesting topic. I apologize if my questions are too trivial,
> but here they are: 
> 
> 	1) Can a person without an SSN have a credit record? Some
> 	   may say that a credit record is a bad thing to have,
> 	   but I am still interested in a possibility.

Yes.  Again, why this is so hard to understand I don't know.  I've said it
20 times on this list.  The SSN is only really revealed officially to the
Social Security Administration.  Even the IRS can't "get" it from the SSA,
they simply get a note from SSA which says "the name and number here don't
match up according to our records."  If they could get the number, they'd
just correct it, rather than sending you letters about it ever 6 months.

> 	2) Will private lenders (such as credit card issuers or
> 	   mortgage companies) agree to extend credit to a person
> 	   without an SSN or to someone who refuses to give out his SSN?

Extremely unlikely as the SSN is used to key the credit search.  I don't
want to encourage fraud or the like, but their ability to check for false
numbers is limited.

> 	3) Will the state issue a driver's license to someone who does not
> 	   have/does not wish to give out their SSN?

Depends on the state.  Some yes, some won't check, some require SSN cards
but accept alternative identification, some say no but will let you if you
complain enough.  You get the idea.

> 	4) Will states' police (where applicable) approve purchases of
> 	   firearms if purchasers do not state their ssn (misstating it
> 	   may be a crime) on an application?

This, again, depends on the state.
The SSN is available to police only if it is in a DMV or police record.
They cannot (excepting perhaps in extreme emergencies, though I've not
heard of such) get it directly from the SSA.

> 	5) Employers are required to pay certain taxes and therefore
> 	   they, in my understanding, need to know their employees SSNs.
> 	   How can people get around that (unless they do not need to work)?

Make a mistake on your form.  When the IRS discovers it, they will send
you, and perhaps your employer but I'm not sure, a letter complaining
about the error and telling you they cannot help you with this and you
have to go to the SSA to deal with it.

I have seen letters which threaten to withhold returns, but usually enough
complaints results in a return being issued anyhow.

> 	6) Can someone without an SSN obtain various kinds of insurance?

See above.
There is no way to verify that your SSN is correct if you did not tell
anyone what it was.

> It is my understanding that the law does not regulate use of social 
> security numbers between private parties. Businesses are free to refuse 
> to do business with someone who does not present them an SSN. In real 
> life, how inconvenient is life of a privacy-concerned individual?

As inconvenient is it is to give private businesses a string of random
numbers.

> Say, John Anonymous is a young 15 years old who anticipates to become an
> engineer and have a middle class life. He wants to get married, have
> children, drive a car, obtain insurance, work at some big company,
> travel around the world, invest in mutual funds or buy stocks, and so
> on. Reliance on government help is not important to him, so he would not
> apply for an SSN solely to get Social Security, welfare and such.
> 
> His parents are cypherpunks and did not obtain an SSN for John. How much 
> effort would it cost him to live a life outlined above?

As I mentioned, I have two associates who don't have, or have never used
their numbers and live quite happily in the United States.

The weak link is the fact that the SSA will not issue the actual numbers
to anyone but the applicant.

> Thank you
> 
> 	- Igor.
> 

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