From: Omegaman <omega@bigeasy.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 15:39:18 -0800 (PST)
To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Untraceable Payments, Extortion, and Other Bad Things
In-Reply-To: <199612242038.MAA20079@netcom18.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.961224182704.3135A-100000@jolietjake.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


On Tue, 24 Dec 1996, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> >I thought the message was a pretty clear statement of opinion.  ie. 
> >the deconstruction of democracy is a good thing and cryptoanarchy 
> >will a enable a more just society.  (Some would argue more brutal as 
> >well, but I think that the level of brutatlity in society would 
> >change little from it's current levels.)
> 
> wow, what a ringing endorsement for cryptoanarchy, and quite Mayesque
> in its style.

You're not very good with context, I see.  The above statement neither
endorses nor condemns the notion of cryptoanarchy.  

You claim that you want to debate Tim on the issue but that he won't put the
issues on the table.  It's all right there for you to attack or support.  

Here:
THESIS:The deconstruction of democracy enabled by the inevitable genesis of
cryptoanarchy will result in a more just (fair?) society.  

Go for it.   Please start a relevant and interesting debate.  But quit
whining that Tim May won't challenge your brilliant mind.  Pick a point and
dissect whether it's accurate or flawed.

> CRYPTOANARCHY!!! GO FOR IT!! IT PROBABLY WON'T BE ANY MORE
> BRUTAL THAN THE WORLD IS ALREADY!!!

Brutality amongst human beings has little to do with what type of
government (or lack thereof) we have established.  Nor is brutality
inevitable amongst human beings; governments have little or no affect on how
individuals think and behave.

> the cryptoanarchy thesis IS crap. everyone with a few brain cells to rub 
> together is capable of seeing through this machiavellian dystopian trash
> masquerading as a rational political philosophy.
>
> anyone heard of "memes"? cryptoanarchy is a virus of weak minds without
> any defense mechanisms. the cpunk list is the principal vector..

Great.  But you said you wanted to debate the fundamental points raised by
May. 

> Mr. May's complex thesis, my profuse apologies if I misunderstood any
> of the parts about extortion, kidnapping, tax evasion, anonymous
> assassinations, etc.

O.K.  The point in the original message was that these things are inevitable
if only one anonymous payment system is established.  

1) Do you agree that these things are an inevitable consequence of anonymous
untraceable payment systems?

2) Do you agree then that all it would take is just one?  Or could one alone
be stopped or controlled?  how?

3) How can these bad things be prevented with an anonymous untraceable 
payment system?

Pick any or all points and make your case.


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