From: furballs <furballs@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:34:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Asgaard <asgaard@Cor.sos.sll.se>
Subject: Re: Decline of Science ?? (Was: Stinger Specs)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.961206114031.14965A-100000@cor.sos.sll.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9612061736.A18241-0100000@netcom>
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On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Asgaard wrote:

> 
> Attila wrote:
> 
> > to participate. junior colleges are graduating students who
> > would not have passed out of tenth grade 20-30 years ago.
> 
> <etc. about Gen 3 (-5) as in Tim's example>
> 
> Isn't this merely an effect of mass education instead of
> elite_only education? And the peak performers will do as
> well as they ever did? Doesn't every generation claim that
> the younger people get defective education in some sense?
> The Latin speakers of Gen 1 were horrified that Gen 2 didn't
> get a thorough understanding of classic Greek culture and
> geometry (but started with 'sets' and 'subsets' instead). 

I disagree. The parochial schools (at least in Oregon) are also showing 
declining test scores. As a parent I make it a habit to look through the 
text books to see what they are teaching - and as expected, the 
Revisionists have not only rewritten and deleted much of the relavent 
American and World history, but have watered down the math and science to 
the point or ludicracy in some cases. Let's face it, when Bill Nye the 
Science Guy is the most popular and the *most informative* science 
educational show on the mass media tube - we've got more than a little 
problem (For the Bill Nye fans - yes I do enjoy watching the show with my 
younger kids).

As a second oberservation, much of the yuppie/hippie generations dont 
seem to give a damn about what their kids are taught - but more that the 
grades are good and they qualify for the "right" schools. Many of these 
schools (college's) are finding that they have to teach the rudiments 
before moving onto what they would have taught first year had the kids 
come properly educated in the first place.

Having lived in a number of school districts (some better than others), 
the problem of parental non-participation and NEA interference is endemic 
at those institutions where my children have attended. I have even taken 
on teachers and adminstrators over the issues of lack of home work, why 
my children have *not* read literature such as Shakespeare, why they are 
not learning about the Founding Father's, why Columbus is considered 
politically incorrect, why they are not requiring Algebra prior to the 
Senior year in High School, why my children must be subject to 
"sensitivity training" as *part* of the curriculum, and the list goes on.

The US spends more money per child each year, but the level of education 
and necessary skill drilling keeps declining, being replaced by courses 
in sex education, diversity training, etc. - creating a class of state 
indoctrinated, functionally illiterate, non-competative individuals that 
think the goverment is mom and pop. 

As for the best and the brightest, they will only succeed if the parents 
take responsibility for managing their kid's education. I know Attila's 
kids personally, and just about any one of them is intellectually capable 
and educated enough to mop the floor with a majority of posters I have 
seen on this list. Why? Because he has spent years fostering their 
inquisitive nature and getting them to push themselves along - outside of 
and at the expense of the teachers' and administrators' sanity.

> 
> Science is still exploding in electro-physics, digital
> programming, molecular biology and several other fields.
> (I wonder what is happening in Pure Math with No Applications
> - not even for Cryptography :) - these days?) And formal
> education is gradually loosing to actual competence.
> 

Interesting point. More to the point, where is the innovation in the field 
coming from? Europe ? Asia? US? elsewhere?

> A real difference, though, is the relative lack of multidisciplinary
> theorists nowadays, I mean with a deep understanding of several
> 'unrelated' fields of knowledge. Most of us with actual competence
> in a certain area are SUBspecialists. This is natural since the
> knowledge bases have exploded to become impossible for any one man
> or woman to comprehend. An industrial cobol programmer probably
> doesn't know shit about Java (perhaps a bad example; I'm not
> a programmer, but I know a guy who makes a good living off cobol!)
> and a PCR biochemist hacking DNA doesn't know shit about immunology
> or molecular neurology. In bio-science there is a discipline
> which tries to put all such kinds of specialties into a broader
> understanding of the human/animal body and soul - it's called
> physiology, and is a declining field with chronic lack of funds;
> not much money in it. I'm sure there is a comparable discipline
> of computer science that I'm not able to name (information theory??),
> with similar economic problems. But there is still hope for the GMAU
> (Grand Meta-Analysis of the Universe); AltaVista is a new, good start
> for collecting ingredients :-)
> 

I will agree with you here. It has been said to me many times by Buisness 
types and Scientists that the days of the Generalist have long since 
died. One must specialize in order to survive. While there may be a 
certain amount of truth to that - it is a short sighted and disasterous 
claim at best, as it precludes the visonaries who understand the big 
picture and can collect, organize, and execute designs the push us 
forward with useful innovations.

> 
> So, I'm not worried. When I indulge in the inevitable bashing of
> younger generations I stick to their bade taste of music, like rap
> and hip-hop (but some acid house/techno is ok), and appearance, like
> tatoos and piercing, and life-style, like working-out, cliff-climbing
> and resorting to vitamins, herbal medicine and other useless stuff.
> (But even so, psychodelic drugs are making a come-back which I think
> is a Good Thing.)
> 
> 
> Asgaard (Gen 2)
> 

Every generation has their "rebellious" stage designe to piss off the 
"establishment". What I find amusing is that liberal parents are 
horrified when their kids, cut their hair, take an interest in education, 
economics and politics, and turn conservative as a result. :-)

...Paul