From: "Mark Rosen" <mrosen@peganet.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 12:27:32 -0800 (PST)
To: <cypherpunks@toad.com>
Subject: Re: Ebonics
Message-ID: <199612212015.PAA09322@mercury.peganet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> > There are several problems with your argument:
> > 	* You are making glaring generalizations regarding all members of an
> > ethnic body; you don't seem to realize that intellect is based not on
color
> > or how you talk but on your brain (which has the same color and other
basic
> > properties in all humans, I believe)
> 
> That would be your generalization.  Nowhere did anyone ever say that
_all_
> black people speak "Ebonics".  I don't see why someone should hire
someone if
> they can't even understand what that person is saying.  Besides, I would
> suspect that a reasonably intelligent person would know how to speak
correct
> English or at least make an attempt to do so.
	Especially in the computer field, language is irrelevant; as long as
someone can "speak" C++ or HTML, they're fine.

> > 	* You are completely forgetting the other "non-English" group in
America;
> > the so-called White Trash or heavy Southern accents, which are violate
just
> > as many prissy and stuck up rules of grammar as Ebonics
> 
> No mention was made of "White Trash".  You're drawing an invalid
conclusion.
	Yes, though your same discrimination rules apply to "White Trash." I want
to see if your language discrimination applies only to black Ebonics or to
the white Southern twang also.

> > 	I also think that you are forgetting about the human aspect of your
> > discrimination. For a second, put yourself in the place of a really
smart
> > black guy applying for a job at Intel. He is overqualified for the job.
You
> 
> There is a logical correlation between intelligence and being able to
follow
> English grammatical rules.
	Not really. America is an incredibly diverse place. There are parts of the
country where correct English-speaking people are minorities; if you've
grown up in one of these places, you'll speak the native dialect no matter
how smart or stupid your are.

> Crypto will allow people to actively discriminate against whomever they
wish.
> It will also allow those who would be discriminated against to protect
> information about themselves to prevent discrimination.  I don't support
> discrimination based on race, but language is a completely different
matter.
	Spoken language, which is what you're discriminating against is vastly
different from typed language. Everyone types pretty much the same way but
everyone speaks differently. People who speak in Ebonics or with a Southern
twang often know the rules of grammar, as expressed in writing, but they do
not speak "correctly" because they are not accustomed to doing so.

> P.S. Spelling and grammar flames will be ignored.
	What?! How can you say this? According to your position, it is my right to
flame you because, as a better grammarian and orthographer, I am more
intelligent than you and you should know this. In fact, your viewpoint can
be extrapolated to say that anyone who make a grammar or spelling mistake
in any message should be thrown off the list becuase they are not
intelligent.