From: Declan McCullagh <declan@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:29:40 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Internet knuckle-dragging from the New York Times
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970624221010.31832D-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:03:20 -0400
From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
To: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: FC: Internet knuckle-dragging from the New York Times

Wired's Todd Lappin started the flamefest last Friday. A bit
uncharacteristic, perhaps, since Todd is generally mild-mannered both
online and offline -- but then again, he had a good point and a juicy
target. It was the New York Times, which had front-paged a scaremongering
above-the-fold article by Christopher Wren:
  http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/062097drug.html

Todd posted on fight-censorship:

	The article, headlined "Seductive Drug Subculture
	Flourishes on the Internet," notes that the Net has
	become "a virtual do-it-yourself guide to drug use,
	at a time when adolescents' experimenting is on the
	rise."  Our intrepid reporter then goes on to assert
	that "partly owing to free-speech protection, the
	Internet lacks a quality control mechanism to
	separate fact from hyperbole or from  outright
	falsehood."

	Indeed, it is also because of those nettlesome
	free-speech protections that the New York Times is
	able to publish such drivel -- replete with it's
	schoolmarm fearmongering, silly correlations, and
	ankle-deep analysis.

Then the Boston Globe's technology reporter, Hiawatha Bray, leaped in...

-Declan

***********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:44:55 -0400
From: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>

Awright.  The lurking is over.

What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
story?  If not, tough luck.

I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
 Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.

Hiawatha Bray
                                                        617-929-3115 voice
Technology Reporter
                                               617-929-3183  fax
Boston Globe
                                                         wathab@tiac.net
                                    P.O. Box 2378
                                    Boston, MA, 02107
                     http://members.tripod.com/~krothering/index.html

**********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:18:34 -0500
From: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@onr.com>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes

At 03:44 PM 6/20/97 -0400, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>Awright.  The lurking is over.
>
>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
>I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
>when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
>writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
>this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
>worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
>sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
>are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
> Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.
>

You missed the point. We all know that there are sex fiends, dope smokers,
and would-be Unabombers in this world, on the net and elsewhere. What we're
saying is that they have free speech rights, just like you. This isn't
about blowing people up. This isn't about molesting children. This isn't
about doing drugs. You don't *do* any of those things online.  But you may
talk about them.  This is about SPEECH.

***********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:28:27 -0800
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>, <Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
From: "--Todd Lappin-->" <telstar@wired.com>

At 11:44 AM -0800 6/20/97, Hiawatha

>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
>I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
>when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
>writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
>this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
>worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
>sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
>are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
> Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.


This is complete and utter bullshit.

I didn't say Wren's article was inaccurate... I said it is a load of
sensationalist crap, laden with half-baked innuendo and unsubstantiated
correlations.

Don't pull the "so-called 'free speech advocate'" horsepucky with me
either.  I'm not calling for censorship of the Times... I'm simply saying
that their story was garbage.  Of course, they have a right to print
garbage... but I also think they have an obligation to recount the facts
accurately, and in proper context.

This article failed to to that.  Instead, it implies that Websites use
cartoons to tempt the young (as if cartoons are only for the young), and
that the availability of drug info online somehow ties in to the fact that
"adolescents' [drug] experimenting is on the rise.

That's both absurd and factually unsubstantiated.

I have no problem discussing the darker side of the Net... I do so
regularly and openly. But I'm fed up with the "Internet Did It" genre of
newspaper reporting.  It's shoddy, and worse, it's dangerous  -- because it
promotes public hysteria through techno-fearmongering.

Deal with it.

--Todd-->

PS: Jon Lebkowsky's last point was excellent.

************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: baby-X <baby-x@millennium-cafe.com>

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Hiawatha Bray wrote:

> I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
> when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
> writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
> this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
> worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
> sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
> are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
>  Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.

Either educate yourself about the fact that what these stories portray as
some virulent epidemic of "bad" information is never anywhere near as severe
as the hysteria said stories try to foster (for example, go spend this
weekend reading all of Jon Katz over at the Netizen), or go back to lurking.

************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:57:49 -0400
From: freematt@coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)

>Awright.  The lurking is over.
>
>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
>I'm tired of listening to so-called "free speech advocates" going ballistic
>when they don't like what someone has to say.  Every time a journalist
>writes a story about the seamier side of the Net, somebody complains that
>this will give outsiders the wrong idea.  Nonsense.  I think what really
>worries you is that such stories give people the RIGHT idea--that there are
>sex fiends, dope smokers and would-be Unabombers on-line.  Well,  there
>are.  And as long as there are, journalists will write about the fact.
> Don't like it?  Too bad.  Deal with it.

Rather than write sensationalist stories on rather rare crimes in tabloid
fashion-  [Not that you are guility of this.]

I'd personally rather see journalists mention that in comparison to kids
swimming, riding a bike, or even playing a game of summer baseball-  The
chances of harm to children surfing the net is infinitesimal.


Regards,  Matt-

********

From: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
To: "Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu" <Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:07:08 -0400

Hmmm...how can I put this?  The quality of the responses to my previous
message was, well...lame.

I don't do flame, so I'm trying to be courteous about this.  But folks--you
need to grow up.

********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:05:31 -0700
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>

At 03:44 PM 6/20/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Awright.  The lurking is over.
>
>What IS your problem?  Can you point to any inaccuracies in Mr. Wren's
>story?  If not, tough luck.
>
If every week, all you saw in the papers were stories of journalists who
beat their wives, jounalists who were arrested on drunk driving charges,
journalists who falsified facts, and journalists who were late on their
child-support payments, would you simply be content to know that all the
stories were accurate? Or would you beging to think that maybe, just maybe,
there was a slant?

What you choose to report on is as important as the accuracy of the report.
What makes this story newsworthy? Why the snide reminder that it's that
darn ol' Free Speech thing that keeps these sites from being shut down? Why
the emphasis on how 'anyone' can post stuff to the net, since there's no
business interest to keep them controlled?

It's 100% pure propaganda, designed to stir up calls for a law to prevent
distributing 'drug information' to minors, what with the pending (we hope
-- well, *I* hope -- you probably don't) collapse of the CDA.

You know it is, too. why are you defending it?

***********

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: baby-X <baby-x@millennium-cafe.com>
To: "Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu" <Fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Hiawatha Bray wrote:

The following is an example of why we don't hold your opinions to be of very
much worth:

> At no point does Mr. Wren say that Internet use among the young causes
> increased drug abuse.  He merely notes that a communications medium very
> popular with young people is laden with messages that encourage drug use,

Laden? Here is the definition of laden from the Hypertext Webster Gateway:

Definition for Laden from database web1913 (web1913)

   Laden \Lad"en\, p. & a. Loaded; freighted; burdened; as, a laden
   vessel; a laden heart.

Loaded? Freighted? Burdened? It's the use of this sort of hysteria-tinted
language that causes so many problems in establishment media ocverage of
cyberspace.

We know, from use of words like this one, what YOUR bias is in these cases.
We're just trying to keep that bias from infecting too much media coverage.


      baby-X <baby-x@millennium-cafe.com>
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
      BitBurn Access - CyberPOLIS - Millennium Cafe - Sluggish Canine
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              http://www.millennium-cafe.com/~baby-x/


*************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:19:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rebecca Daugherty <rebeccad@CapAccess.org>
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>

I think it's at least philosophically inaccurate to blame the net for the
action.  It's like killing the messenger, cursing the pen.  And it's too
sure 'n easy a spin  -- bad ole technology has done this too us.  um.um.um.

There are changes to note -- there are new kinds of technologically
proficient pedophiles and they merit some ink so they can be combatted. But
the net is the same old net and a benign one with no seamy side at all in
my thinking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebecca Daugherty <rebeccad@capaccess.org>
Director, FOI Service Center, Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press
Visit our web site for media law information: http://www.rcfp.org/rcfp/

**************

Subject: Re: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:07:19 -0400
From: Thomas Grant Edwards <tedwards@isr.umd.edu>

In fairness, I don't see many stories in the media about guns except
in consideration of their use for murder or suicide.  Infact, the Net
gets off much easier than guns!

-Thomas

**************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:54:47 -0700
To: Hiawatha Bray <wathab@tiac.net>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes
Cc: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu

At 06:22 PM 6/20/97 -0400, Hiawatha Bray wrote:
>I gotta admit, I find your reply irresistible!   Much too much fun to argue
>with.  Okay.  You win.  You get to be Lizard.
>
>But you're still talking nonsense about the Times story.  Just because it
>makes you nervous to read nastiness about the Net, doesn't make it wrong
>for journalists to write the truth.  Besides, have you ever kept count of
>how many pro-Net stories there are?  If anything, we reporters have been
>guilty of shamelessly hyping the Internet.  I could probably show you 10
>positive stories about the Internet for every negative one.  Trust me--I
>end up reading nearly all of them...it's the cross I must bear!
>
Very few 'pro internet' stories deal with the REAL benefits of the Internet
-- the breakup of the media monopoly, the 'everyone is a reader, everyone
is a writer' concept, the building of communities of interest rather than
coincidence. We all know about children meeting Evil Predators on the net
-- why not stories about children meeting mentors, teachers, or counselors?
Rather than "My wife left me for her cyberlover!", why not "I met my wife
thanks to our shared interest in barbed-wire collecting"?

Let's look at that drug story. Why not write it like this?
====================================================
"After decades of getting only one side of the story from teachers,
government, and a lapdog media, teenagers are now able to easily access
both pro- and anti- drug information on the Internet, and chat with each
other about their drug experiences in secure anonymity, permitting them to
make up their own minds on this complex issue.

Because Internet access is so inexpensive, people do not need the support
of advertisers or subscribers to post any information they wish -- so views
outside the mainstream, which would never be aired in traditional forums,
can reach anyone with a modem, anywhere in the world. Further, the
interactive nature of the net makes it easy for people on all sides of a
debate to fire off points and counterpoints, so that the audience (who can
become participants at will) can make up their own minds, ask questions,
and raise issues that neither side might choose to raise on their own.

"It's wonderful for kids", says Mr. Fictional, teacher at Utopia Public
School. "We don't want them to 'Say No to Drugs' out of fear or ignorance,
but out of a reasoned understanding of the harm drugs can do to them -- and
that means they need to get the facts, not a lot of scare tactics. The
government would never let us teach the 'straight dope', if you will, but
we can turn kids on to the net and let them learn for themselves."
====================================================

There. There's all the "facts" -- but a very different spin, no?

************

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:53:29 -0500
From: Jon Lebkowsky <jonl@onr.com>
Subject: RE: Internet Knuckle-dragging from the NYTimes

>Very nice.  But so what?  Mr. Wren simply reported what's going on.  He
>never called for censorship of the Internet.  Were you reading the same
>article I was, or what?

Yeah, the article that said "partly owing to free-speech
protection, the Internet lacks a quality control mechanism to separate fact
from hyperbole or from  outright falsehood."

While not exactly a call for censorship, this is certainly dismissive of
free speech.

************



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