From: Jason William RENNIE <jrennie@hardy.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:38:27 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970809155403.04096a20@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970810180200.1769A-100000@hardy>
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> > The largest is Roman Catholic 
> 
> Which some Christian sects argue is not Christian.  (For an extreme view of
> this, read the tract "The Death Cookie" published by Jack T. Chick. It can
> be obtained from http://www.jackchick.com/ .)
> 

I'm inclined to agree with the RC's not being The same as prodestants 
comment. Why else would you have had Luther and the other reformers if 
some of catholicism wasn't a problem ??


> The founders of this country were of many different belief systems.  Many
> of them were hated and reviled by the clerics of their day.  Of course,
> evangelical Christians gloss over these facts in an effort to continue
> their ~2,000 years of enslavement of the minds of men.
> 

Is it worth noting at this point that an evangilical Christian and the 
religious right have little in common. Evangelicals (I'm one) belive the 
Bible to be the word of God etc.. but don't add anythign else to it and 
certianly wouldn't force thier beliefs down your throat. They would 

> 
> >Next, you attack christians for
> >trying to control the content made available on the internet. 
> 
> At last!  The plan exposed!  Damn right he attacks you!  But Christians get
> pretty touchy when faced with criticism of their agenda.  (Or mentioning
> that their beliefs are NOT the word of God, of exposing the flaws in
> Christianity, or having any view that conflicts with the "One True God(tm)".)
> 

I would also have a problem with Christians controlling and censoring the 
net. I would welcome (and do welcome) sites that which to argue against 
Christianity. What wrong with that ?? It simply provides a forum for 
Christians to defend thier beliefs. Besides if I censor you now because i 
find your content un acceptable whats to stop you censoring me later when 
your in the majority ! What utter stupidity to load the gun for others. 
Particularly as i am a Christian I WOULD be critical of some of the 
religious rights ideas and agendas and would happily argue from the Bible 
that they are not a good thing.


> In other words, you can claim it is voluntary and make it look like you are
> giving people a choice as you push your morality down their throats.  The
> Bible Beaters try to impose their views of what is right and wrong, but get
> pretty offended and huffy when others try and do the same thing.  (Like
> when they push School Prayer, but freak out when the pagans want the same
> options.)

I thought school pray was outlawed in the states ?? 

> 
> How would you react if the ratings groups were stacked with Athiests,
> Wiccans, Tantrics, and Jainists?  Would you be willing to accept their
> judgements on the acceptability of your beliefs and speech?
> 

Would they be willing to accpet my view on thiers ?? If yes then i'll 
accept thiers on mine


> >Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
> >the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
> >their children?

Such as ?? As has been said before you can get censorware to control 
thier access.


> Children need to be challenged by ideas that are different from their own.
> If they are not, then they grow up with ideas that they cannot
> intellectually defend.  They grow up intelecually squishy.

I must agree with that point

> I have known far too many Christians who never read anything that
> challenges their basic belief structure.  Nothing that could dare shake
> their faith in God and the Bible.  In their isolation, they are taught to
> believe ideas that have no rational defense.  (Like Biblical inerrancy and
> Creationism.)  When challenged, these outcasts from reason have to rely on
> the "moral authority" of their unseen God or other appeals to authority to
> try and defend their irrational beliefs.

Christians whould read challenging stuff. IT expands thier mind and 
strengthens thier beliefs (Well i find it does), and in my expirence a 
Christian who cant defend thier faith needs to learn more. Although i 
would disagree with dismissing creationism and Biblical inerrancey. (not 
that is is an appropriate forum for such a discussion)

Well intersting post. I hope the response is of some use.

Jason =8-]