From: Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:14:55 +0800
To: "David D.W. Downey" <admin@CyberSpaceTechnologies.com>
Subject: Re: The BIG Lie (Jesus Confesses)
In-Reply-To: <199708081253.GAA06495@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970809155403.04096a20@ctrl-alt-del.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 06:26 PM 8/8/97 -0400, David D.W. Downey wrote while wearing a big "Kick
Me!" sign:

>You know, you are just about the biggest idiot I have ever had the
>displeasure of reading. 

You are new here, huh?

>For one, the largest religion in the US right
>now *is* in fact judeo-christian.

Sorry, "Jews for Jesus" is not quite that big.  They are about the only
faith that quite fits that label.  (Unless you count the all-inclusive
Bahai or the ALL-IN-ONE faith of Dr. Bronner.)

Oh, you mean Christian...  Trying to lump all Christian belief together
(along with Judaism) is like trying to lump all governments together and
claim they have the same laws.

> The largest is Roman Catholic 

Which some Christian sects argue is not Christian.  (For an extreme view of
this, read the tract "The Death Cookie" published by Jack T. Chick. It can
be obtained from http://www.jackchick.com/ .)

>with
>Pentacostal Protestant following right behind.

With big pointy knives...

The biggest growth in the Pentecostal church was during the Reagan
administration, when they emptied the mental hospitals.  Didn't your mother
ever tell you that just because all your friends are speaking in tongues,
it doesn't make it any less silly?

Just because lots of people believe a stupid thing, it does not make it any
less stupid.

> Next, this country was
>founded on christian beliefs, or have you failed to read the words of
>the constitution of the US.

Sounds like you have been prowling Christian book stores again.  Maybe you
should read the writings of the Founding Fathers and not just the books
your church has authorized for you.

A few suggestions:

-- The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine
<http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/part1
.html>
   This book should be required reading for all Christians.  A expose of the
   difference between what the church tells you and what the Bible actually
   says.  (For a more condensed version take a look at:

<http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_jefferson/virginia_act.ht
ml>.)
   
-- The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom by Thomas Jefferson 

<http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_jefferson/virginia_act.ht
ml>
   This law was the basis of the separation of church and state in the
   constitution.  Read this and see if they were basing the country on your
   faith.

There are many others...

The founders of this country were of many different belief systems.  Many
of them were hated and reviled by the clerics of their day.  Of course,
evangelical Christians gloss over these facts in an effort to continue
their ~2,000 years of enslavement of the minds of men.

> Considering the apparent ignorance you have
>displayed thus far about the makeup of the US, I would venture to say
>that you probably have not read it. 

I am willing to bet that you have not either...  (Except for the excerpts
quoted in the books pushing the idea to the willing flock, written by the
Christians who wish to perpetuate the fraud.)

What in the Constitution makes you think that it was the Christian God that
was being mentioned and not the God of Deists?

>Next, you attack christians for
>trying to control the content made available on the internet. 

At last!  The plan exposed!  Damn right he attacks you!  But Christians get
pretty touchy when faced with criticism of their agenda.  (Or mentioning
that their beliefs are NOT the word of God, of exposing the flaws in
Christianity, or having any view that conflicts with the "One True God(tm)".)

>At least
>the site ratings plan is better than alot of other plans I have seen.

In other words, you can claim it is voluntary and make it look like you are
giving people a choice as you push your morality down their throats.  The
Bible Beaters try to impose their views of what is right and wrong, but get
pretty offended and huffy when others try and do the same thing.  (Like
when they push School Prayer, but freak out when the pagans want the same
options.)

How would you react if the ratings groups were stacked with Athiests,
Wiccans, Tantrics, and Jainists?  Would you be willing to accept their
judgements on the acceptability of your beliefs and speech?

I didn't think so.

>Besides, Oh Godlike TruthMonger, where is *your* surefire plan to halt
>the spread of trash that *most* humans would want out of of the reach of
>their children?

*Most* humans want their children to grow up ignorant about sex and the
outside world?

What about texts that are used as justification to commit mass murder and
enslavement?  How are you going to rate those?  (Books that teach that it
is right and proper to go off and kill your neighbors because they do not
believe in your God and happen to be on land your deity covets.)  Oh
wait...  That is the current dominant religion.  Can't censor that!

Children need to be challenged by ideas that are different from their own.
If they are not, then they grow up with ideas that they cannot
intellectually defend.  They grow up intelecually squishy.

I have known far too many Christians who never read anything that
challenges their basic belief structure.  Nothing that could dare shake
their faith in God and the Bible.  In their isolation, they are taught to
believe ideas that have no rational defense.  (Like Biblical inerrancy and
Creationism.)  When challenged, these outcasts from reason have to rely on
the "moral authority" of their unseen God or other appeals to authority to
try and defend their irrational beliefs.

If the rules your faith proposes were enforced impartially, your "holy
book" would be amongst the burned and censored.

> I have not seen you *once* offer a straightforward clear
>cut plan to efficiently handle *any* issue placed for discussion on this
>listserv. I have seen you do nothing but slam, belittle, and degrade
>others and their beliefs and ideas. You do this under the unimpressive
>tag of "TruthMonger".

But since "TruthMonger" is an anonymous identity and a nym for someone
else, you have no idea that this is true.  (Actually it is not.
TruthMonger has made a number of suggestions, but they conflict with your
worldview.)  But I forgot...  You believe in Jesus.  (The original urban
legend...)  You have infallible insight into the way things should be.

Some to think of it, I have not seen you post any suggestions at all.  Just
this weeny little screed when your belief structure is threatened.

> If anything, you are anything but a TruthMonger.
>When you can come up with a plan that even *remotely* seems like a
>logically thought out, planned, and intelligent proposal on how to
>handle the issues presented everyday on the internet that affect the
>computing industry balanced with a concern for the children, then I will
>listen. (And yes, I do agree that the parents of the children have an
>obligation to monitor the content they are exposed to. It's called
>responsible parenting which unfortunately is not a well practiced
>ideology.

"When you can come up with a way to censor the net, then I will believe you."

"When you come to accept my priorities and my belief system, then I will
listen."

"When you come up with a plan that meets MY goals, then we'll talk."

Of course "concern for the children" is just another way of saying
"eliminating content that offends the parents".

If you don't want your children exposed to "information that might harm
them", then don't let them on the net.  The net was never designed or meant
to be a "family friendly" environment.  It was meant as a way for ADULTS to
exchange information.  Of course, your kind would like to reduce the
intellectual and emotional content of the net to that of a mythical twelve
year old...  Nothing to offend or challenge your beliefs...  (So you can
keep your kids in the same mental gulag that you have imposed on your own
minds.)

Maybe you need to ask yourself *WHY* this material offends you so much?

"Protecting children" is the first refuge of the censor.

>And to take the wind out of your sales, I have 2 children and
>as a parent I limit them to what is appropriate to their ages.)

I guess there is a seeker born every minute...

Or at least, what you perceive that to be...  I find it sad that you have
reproduced at all.  Hopefully your children will learn to seek information
not filtered through the eyes of the bible-believer.  

> Until
>such time as you can fulfill the obligations to us, the adult computing
>population, and our offspring, the children (just in case your fuddled
>mind does not know what they are), I suggest you rest those busy little
>fingers of yours and listen to the underlying theme of the issues before
>us.

What obligation is that?  I have no obligation to you and I SERIOUSLY doubt
if you represent the "computing public".  (Or at least, I hope not, though
that might explain COBOL...)

I think you need to reread what you wrote there.  

We have no obligation to you or your "God".  Our tongues shall not praise,
nor shall we kneel.  

We shall oppose your attempted dominion over the minds and bodies of men.

We will not bend over for the rod and staff of Jesus.

We shall will paragraphs.

> Until then, HateMonger, I have one suggestion for you..... Shut Up!

Or what?  Will Daddy spank?

I think you need to get a better connection to a clue server.

Or in the words of Crow T. Robot: "Bite me!"


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