From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:05:58 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Tim Throws a "Leaner" / Re: Tim Speaks the Truth /  Re: Tim Misfires / Re: Joichi Ito as a Junior Policeman
Message-ID: <199708040346.FAA26108@basement.replay.com>
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Joichi Ito wrote:
> As for Tim's message... I keep worrying (when I am in Japan) that I'm too
> radical, so it's nice to hear from someone who is really hardcore to put
> a wimp like me in my place. ;-P

  Actually, when Tim puts someone in what he considers to be their
place,
it usually involves the purchase of a tombstone.

Tim May wrote:
> Unlike "Toto," who claims to be "Truthmonger," I speak the truth.
 
"Am I Toto, dreaming I am TruthMonger, or TruthMonger, dreaming I am
Toto?"

> At 5:12 AM -0700 8/3/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> >so they probably are pretty militaristic), Japan does not have the
> >equivalent of the NSA. It really is in Japanese national security interests

> Wise up, Joichi. You live in society more totalitarian than anything we
> fear. 

  Japanese society has long been very rule-oriented, in large part as
a result of the country's geography, population and history.
  A "No Farting" sign which might reek of totalitarianism when placed
on the open range, might well seem less so when placed in a two-man
tent occupied by six people. Environment, geography and the history
of a a country, society and its people, all play a part in the degree
to which an individual will view their personal position in regard to
the society and government around them. And each will perceive the way
in which they feel they can best promote their beliefs within their
society and government.
  
> Japanese citizen-units under video surveillance and afraid to speak
> out. 

  It seemed to me that after Jim Bell's arrest, most of the posts to
the list posted an almost-standard disclaimer: "Actually, although
I hardly knew the man, thought he was a _loon_, and _disagreed_ with
most of what he had to say..."

> And surveillance and espionage technology deployed by your fascist
> government--a term I mean literally, not casually--will worsen things
> dramatically.
> The only "cooperation" with them is to seek their annihilation.

  Government aside, if I was forced by fate to live in Japan, my first
act would probably be to annihilate 80% of the population, just to get
enough elbow room to negate the need for so damn many rules, both from
society and government. Of course, the same could probably be said for
New York City, from my persepective.

> And nothing but mischief will come out any meetings with government on
> "crypto policy," as their goals can never be our goals. At least in the
> U.S., despite obvious flaws, we have a "Congress shall make no law"
> provision which _tends_ to make government meddling in speech, such as
> meddling in crypto, more difficult.

  I hope that the "flag" Tim is wrapping himself in isn't the same one
that he was burning yesterday.
  {Not that I'm accusing Tim of being purposely deceitful. It's just
that when we throw a "leaner" instead of a "ringer," they sometimes
lean in opposite directions.}

  Seriously, I believe in the original goals of organizations such as
the EFF and CDT, etc, but I also believe that their leaders should be
assassinated every few years in order to allow the promotion of people
whose senses are not so hardened by D.C. that they no longer recognize
a "stench" when they smell it. (ibid, the Constitution and our beloved
Legislators.)
  Joichi Ito sounds very sincere about his commitment to act in a way
he feels will promote cypherpunkish viewpoints within his system of
government. I can't help but believe, however, that his efforts will
ultimately only serve to delay the creeping spread of tyrannical cancer
in our societies and our governments.
  I tend to lean more toward Tim's viewpoint, that there comes a point
when the best option is surgery (a radical Legislat-ectomy?), but I
would not go so far as to suggest that others should not pursue other
treatments which they think may stem the tide of the disease.

  I hope Joichi Ito paid enough attention to the OKC bombing to realize
that some surgeons are less skilled than others, and that there is a
risk in remaining too long in close proximity with cancerous tissue.

DreamMonger
"There's something wrong when I'm a TruthMonger 
   under an increasing number of personas."