From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:28:04 +0800
To: cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com (Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer)
Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
Message-ID: <199809101750.MAA04560@einstein.ssz.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Forwarded message:

> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:46:40 -0500
> From: Petro <petro@playboy.com>
> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)

> >That'll work for gasoline because soap and gasoline are soluble. I doubt it
> >would work very well for alcohol but once I get this mess with the tree
> >straightened out I'll do a little backyard experiment.
> >
> >What I had in mind was to pour some alcohol on the concrete drive way and
> >light it. Then use a waterbottle with a water/soap mix. Do you think that
> >would be a suitable simulation?
> 
> 	No.

Ok, then what would be a suitable test in your view?

It seems to me that after reviewing your comments this would be sufficient.
We have a small pool of fuel that is on fire, we spray water on it and
monitor the behaviour. We then create another similar pool and spary water
w/ detergent in it and note any differences.

> 	The point of using the detergent has nothing to do with it's
> solubility in gasoline/kerosene (I have much more experience with JP5 than
> gas, and JP5 is basically a high grade kerosene/diesel), but rather it is
> there to break up the water tension & allow the water to "float" on top of
> the gas/oil/whatever.

Actualy it's to keep the water from forming 'beads' because of differences
in density. The surface tension of water is much higher than most fuels so
if you put a little water in a lot of fuel you don't want it to bead. This
is analogouse to why you put your injector cleaner in *before* the gas so
that the difference in density won't effect the thoroughness of the mixing.
You can do the same sort of thing at home with cooking oil, water, and
detergent.

As to water floating on top of gasoline, it won't for any lentgh of time
greater than a fraction of a second, detergent or no detergent.

> 	Actually, by using solar heating/cooling techiques instead of
> (ineffecient) conversion to electicity, you can save MUCH more energy.

I have several friends who are as fanatical about this technology as you
seem to be. I find it interesting that in 20 years of playing with it they
are still in the red.

The proof is in the pudding.

> 	I don't see how, you just get it up there inside the orbit of the
> earth, and let gravity do the rest.

If it was ONLY that simple. When you leave the Earth you have the Earths
orbital momental (and it is considerable). I'll refer you to:

Classical Mechanics (2nd ed)
HC Corben, P. Stehle
ISBN 0-486-68063-0 (Dover)
$10.95

Introduction to Space Dynamics
WT Thomson
ISBN 0-486-65113-4 (Dover)
$8.00

Because I'm way to lazy today to want to delve in to triple-integrals and
such.

> 	I don't mind killing a salamander or 100, but I don't want my
> electric supply, and it's attendant costs to be dependent on ONE
> technology, or source of supply.

If there is any alternative that will fulfill the requirements and doesn't
require the arbitrary collateral damage then it isn't worth it, period. If
for no other reason than the ethical responsibility to pass on the world as
undamaged as possible to the next generation. (another oversite in current
economic thought that I find makes it unusable)

> 	We already have the have/have not situatiuon.

True, but only because the current energy sources are located in specific
geographic areas.

> 	I think there is also this issue that NG doesn't "burn" when the
> tank cracks, it "explodes", and when it does burn, it is very similar to
> alcohol in that it doesn't have much of a flame.

Actualy natural gas isn't any more flamable than gasoline or alcohol. What
makes it safer is the gas diffuses in the air much faster than either
alcohol or gasoline. In fact, in an accident I'd rather have a gas involved
than a liquid because of this. I've seen several natural gas fires and they
burn a yellow-orange (course they could be putting something in there
besides the odorant to cause this).


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