From: Petro <petro@playboy.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:22:46 +0800
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM
Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
Message-ID: <v0311070bb21c8458165b@[206.189.103.244]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 11:52 AM -0500 9/9/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <v03110703b21c4777ca38@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/09/98
>   at 09:58 AM, Petro <petro@playboy.com> said:
>>At 11:25 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:>>>In
>><v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/08/98
>>>   at 06:17 PM, Petro <petro@playboy.com> said:
>>>>	No, more like a get off our fucking land.
>>>Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
>>>there?
>>	Point is, the "Arabs" didn't start it, the UN/European leaders (US, UK,
>>FR, and RU) did.
>Both the Palestinians and the Jews living in Trans-Jordan wanted their own
>country. The UN resolution divided up the land based on population and
>gave each group their own country. Israel declared their independence, the
>Palestinians listened to the Grand Mufti and join in the holy war to wipe
>out the Jews. The Arabs lost, too bad, game over.
>
>And interesting note to the whole palestinian "issue" is that the majority
>of the population of Jordan is palestinian!! And long before the Intifada
>the PLO tried to take over the government of Jordan and were embroiled in
>civil war for most of the 60's and early 70's. The Jordanian Arabs finally
>kick the PLO out in the early 70's (71 maybe 72).
>
>
>>	If I move you off your property at the point of a gun, should I expect
>>you to _like_ it, even if I gave you what I consider "fair market value"?
>
>This re-wright of history might give you warm fuzzies but no one was moved
>at gun point off their land (at least not until the Arabs started the
>war). The Jews that emigrated to Trans-Jordan/Palestine *purchased* the
>land from the Arabs that were living there. Even after the war the
>majority of palestinians left on their own.

	Ok, I'm rewriting history, you say IN THE SAME POST:

The UN resolution divided up the land based on population and gave each
group their own country.

	--and--

The Jews that emigrated to Trans-Jordan/Palestine *purchased* the land from
the Arabs that were living there.

	So tell me, is there a difference between being _told_ you will
sell your house and move, and deciding you really would prefer to live
elsewhere? Oh, and when this artifical coutry was set up, did EVERYONE have
equal say in the government, or were certain Northern Europeans of jewish
faith considered more equal. Of course, being given the short end of the
political and economic stick couldn't be considered an incitement.


>None of the current Arab countries existed until the British carved up
>their conquered territory after WWI. If Israel is not "legitimate" because
>of UK/UN involvement does it follow that all of the Arab states that were
>formed at this time are also illegitimate? Perhaps we should should

	The region was carved up using an existing population, not by
importing one from a different country.

	Like Mr. May, I have no problems with anyone who wants to live
anywhere in peace and co-existence.

	The Israeli government is not interested in that, if it were
politically possible, they'd do the same to the Palistanians as the Germans
tried to do to them.

>I find it quite hypocritical of Americans who see the Israelites as
>occupiers and oppressors but would be outraged at calls to give back the
>south-west to Mexico. Tim, you want to give your ranch to some Mexican
>family since the Americans took that land from them? but then the mexicans
>would have to give that land back to some deserving "native" Americans as
>they took that land from them. But then again we would have to sift
>through the thousands of years of tribal warfare and migration to find the
>one true owners of the land.

	You seem to be saying that Conquest by Force Of Arms is acceptable,
then the PLO is still trying to take back what they lost.

petro@playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro@bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.