From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 94 10:25:57 PDT
To: rarachel@prism.poly.edu (Arsen Ray Arachelian)
Subject: Re: PC Expo summary!!
In-Reply-To: <9407031617.AA01489@prism.poly.edu>
Message-ID: <199407031726.KAA03936@netcom6.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



First, what Arsen Ray A. did at PC-Expo was admirable. I haven't
criticized it in any way.

However, my name comes up in two ways here, so I wish to comment.

* the "focus" on cryptoanarchy, which, as Perry M. noted may not be
the best introductory material. This has also come up in connection
with newcomers like Sherry Mayo discovering our group through URLs
that are out there and being put off by the putative focus, based on
the article the URL compilers have selected for inclusion.

* my alleged inability or unwillingness to help Arsen Ray A.

I'll use Arsen's article as the basis for comment:


> I agree.  However, I was severely pressed for time, and this was the best
> resource I could find that dealt with most of the issues dealing with Clipper.

Well, I understand the pressures of time :-}. But Arsen first
mentioned the PC-Expo diskette project in late April or early May,
according to my archives, so there were 7 to 9 weeks to put articles
together. Granted, people did not respond to calls to write tutorials,
but that's to be expected, for some good and some human nature
reasons. Face it, people just don't write free articles. Or "stone
soup" articles ("Hey, here's the title...now you fill in the
details.").

Besides, a truly vast amount of stuff has already been written on
Clipper, on escrow in general, on Digital Telephony, etc. Articles
that were posted to Cypherpunks may not be salable in toto, but
certainly excerpts fall under the "fair use" standards (I routinely
snatch phrases and paragraphs, with attribution, for the FAQ I'm still
trying to get finished).

So I am not overly sympathetic to the claims that nothing was
available. Or that Cypherpunks would not write stuff for the PC-Expo
diskettes! (I don't mean this to be harsh to Arsen...just a factual
comment on his article.)

> I don't think it made anarchist==cypherpunk, though granted some folks would
> take it that way.  Certainly a cypherpunk is nothing more than somone who
> uses crypto for his privacy and demands strong crypto. However the transcript
> did offer a lot of information as to what the uses are both legal and illegal
> and what the dangers of weak crypto & clipper.

I think the Dave Mandl-Perry Metzger piece was fine. Not likely to get
people to use crypto, but it may recruit some libertarians and
anarchists to our cause--and that is always good!

> I did ask around for beginners articles & was told to write some up myself.
> I would have, had I not been pressed for time.  As I said in the pc-expo
> summary, I had to write lots of software, and weed though about 900 files that
> I captured off this list to see what I can use.  None of them had as much raw

I was asked to either write something up for this diskette, or to
"mosh together" some of my essays. I declined, feeling it was Arsen's
project and that he should write the connective material
himself...good experience in learning to write a tutorial, etc. I'm
also skeptical about the need for more essays on why Clipper is
bad....anybody who hasn't already read about 30 articles and
editorials on Clipper has been living in a cave for the past 14 months.


> This wasn't my original intention, but unless someone (even myself) writes
> a nice big text file on all the issues from clipper, to rsa, to patents to
> pgp to even Tempest and IR face scans at the airport, this was the best resource
> I could find.  Even Tim wasn't able to help out.   I had little choice.  IT
> was either include this file and offend some readers, or don't include it and
> leave them clueless.  Which would you rather had me do?

"Tim wasn't able to help out" for the reasons mentioned above. And
even had I been willing to, I got the urgent message from Arsen just a
few days before the deadline (I can check my records, but it was
recently). (Don't say "I" knew the deadline since April....I never
volunteered to write essays on a custom basis for this project.)


About the "Copyright Cypherpunks" blurb:

> You obviously can sell someone a copy of it.  You wrote it, it's under your
> copyright more than the cypherpunks.  You have to keep in mind that the visuals
> of this disk were to make it look like some big corporation was putting out
> demo software. Not a bunch of loosely connected folks who know each other
> only via email (mostly anyway.)  Putting a copyright notice on it certainly
> brings this out more.  Also the title of the disk wasn't "Cypherpunks Disks"
> it was "Data Security & Privacy\n A Free Software Demo"  In small letters
> it stated that PGP & SecureDevice & WNS were on the disk.

Had that been an interview I gave, I'd've been pissed off to see
someone else attach the "Copyright Cypherpunks" blurb on my words.
Even with my permission (and I assume Dave Mandl and Perry Metzger
were asked for permission), attaching the words "Copyright
Cypherpunks" is misleading: Cypherpunks are not an organized group.
Issuing things in their name creates a misleading impression....and
might, very unlikely though it is, create some kind of legal pressures
on us. (An advantage to our disorganization is that governments can't
find anyone to prosecute for the crimes of the "group.")


> As far as copyright is concerned, while we are just a "mailing list" we can
> also be thought as an organization.  We are "organized" and our address is
> only on the internet.  The method of organization is anarchy.  None the less
> we aren't any less of an organization than any other.  We just don't operate
> in the same way IBM or MicroSoft, or EFF or EPIC does.  Does that mean we
> can't copyright stuff in the cypherpunks name?  I don't know, I'm not a lawyer
> and I agree with you that it probably wouldn't hold true infront of a 
> copyright judge or a copyright lawyer.  None the less, it was put there for
> effect and it did its job for effect, not for copyright.

The main problem is one of taste. If I attached a Cypherpunks
copyright on my latest video, "Debbie Does Fort Meade," folks here
might be upset. (I'm not saying Arsen's thing was all that
serious--most likely the essay was read by exactly 7 people, 6 of whom
have forgotten it, and 1 of whom is wondering why his mail to the
incorrect address "cypherpunks@toad.com" is going unanswered.)

Again, I congratulate Arsen for his intitiative. I don't cotten to his
denunciation of us a few days for somehow failing him, though. The job
of an editor is not an easy one; it's a lot more than just announcing
a project and then waiting for others to finish the work. (This
apprach rarely works even when _money_ is offered, let alone when the
work is for free, etc.)

I've spent entirely too much time writing articles for Cyphepunks, so
I am bemused to see charges that Cypherpunks are not doing enough.


--Tim May


-- 
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Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
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