From: rarachel@prism.poly.edu (Arsen Ray Arachelian)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 94 11:27:50 PDT
To: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: PC Expo summary!!
In-Reply-To: <199407031726.KAA03936@netcom6.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <9407031815.AA02636@prism.poly.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text


> First, what Arsen Ray A. did at PC-Expo was admirable. I haven't
> criticized it in any way.

Please, call me Ray. :-)  Nevermind what Poly tells ya. :-)

I thank you, although there is room for criticism. :-)  I did screw up a couple
of things as I did mention earlier.  But at least now there's a precedent so
that others elsewhere can do the same thing, and will be able to do it
without that bug.
 
> However, my name comes up in two ways here, so I wish to comment.
> 
> * the "focus" on cryptoanarchy, which, as Perry M. noted may not be
> the best introductory material. This has also come up in connection
> with newcomers like Sherry Mayo discovering our group through URLs
> that are out there and being put off by the putative focus, based on
> the article the URL compilers have selected for inclusion.

Agreed, but I had little else that would make as much of a difference.
 
> * my alleged inability or unwillingness to help Arsen Ray A.
> 
> I'll use Arsen's article as the basis for comment:
> 
> > I agree.  However, I was severely pressed for time, and this was the best
> > resource I could find that dealt with most of the issues dealing with Clipper.
> 
> Well, I understand the pressures of time :-}. But Arsen first
> mentioned the PC-Expo diskette project in late April or early May,
> according to my archives, so there were 7 to 9 weeks to put articles
> together. Granted, people did not respond to calls to write tutorials,
> but that's to be expected, for some good and some human nature
> reasons. Face it, people just don't write free articles. Or "stone
> soup" articles ("Hey, here's the title...now you fill in the
> details.").

Yes, quite true.  At that time I was working part time and had a lot of spare
time to work with.  I was basically collecting posts from the lists which I
would consider using.  Come May however, my free time dropped to almost zero.
Again, this is nothing but hindsight, but what's done is done.  Let's hope
for the best result.
 
> Besides, a truly vast amount of stuff has already been written on
> Clipper, on escrow in general, on Digital Telephony, etc. Articles
> that were posted to Cypherpunks may not be salable in toto, but
> certainly excerpts fall under the "fair use" standards (I routinely
> snatch phrases and paragraphs, with attribution, for the FAQ I'm still
> trying to get finished).

Again, PC Expo was Tuesday.  I finished the disk between Sunday and Monday.
I barely had enough time to put the stuff that I did manage to put on the
disk.  I didn't have time to clip quotes out of articles though I intended
to do so.  However Wired's articles on the Cypherpunks & Clipper were very
handy and did make their way on the disk. 
 
> So I am not overly sympathetic to the claims that nothing was
> available. Or that Cypherpunks would not write stuff for the PC-Expo
> diskettes! (I don't mean this to be harsh to Arsen...just a factual
> comment on his article.)

Most of my bitching was directed to those punx who volunteered then backed
out.  Sorry if this wasn't clear.  Yes, there were plenty of articles, but
I did not have them all available to me.  All in all, the Wired articles and
the Transcript were the best of the crop.  The others were tidbits of sorts
and didn't quite fit in as the Uncypherpunk's Manual to Cypherpunk issues.
:-)  I asked you for material because A) You wrote tons of it, B) I was
hoping you had some around which you could forward to me, or C) you had
or would have written something ; D) which I asked was if you could mosh
something together as you mention further on..

This wasn't a "Tim, he didn't help out at all."  You did, I did have some 
of your posts on the disk; but not much in terms of what was needed.

> I think the Dave Mandl-Perry Metzger piece was fine. Not likely to get
> people to use crypto, but it may recruit some libertarians and
> anarchists to our cause--and that is always good!

But perhaps some will use it anyway, even if they have qualms about the
transcript. :-)  Let's hope that in the least it helped spread PGP a bit
further. 
 
> I was asked to either write something up for this diskette, or to
> "mosh together" some of my essays. I declined, feeling it was Arsen's
> project and that he should write the connective material
> himself...good experience in learning to write a tutorial, etc. I'm
> also skeptical about the need for more essays on why Clipper is
> bad....anybody who hasn't already read about 30 articles and
> editorials on Clipper has been living in a cave for the past 14 months.
 
Which I would have if I had the time or the foresight to start such an article
ahead of time instead of thinking I had captured enough from the list.  I
perhaps will do so for future disks, etc.  Again, I know you are busy and
would not have asked if I wasn't under a lot of time stress..

> Had that been an interview I gave, I'd've been pissed off to see
> someone else attach the "Copyright Cypherpunks" blurb on my words.
> Even with my permission (and I assume Dave Mandl and Perry Metzger
> were asked for permission), attaching the words "Copyright
> Cypherpunks" is misleading: Cypherpunks are not an organized group.
> Issuing things in their name creates a misleading impression....and
> might, very unlikely though it is, create some kind of legal pressures
> on us. (An advantage to our disorganization is that governments can't
> find anyone to prosecute for the crimes of the "group.")

Well what did you want me to do with those who were interested?  Not put
any sort of contact info on there whatsoever?  Certainly the copyright
on that particular transcript may be misleading, but are Perry and Dave
non-cypherpunks?  Well, never mind, I'm painting myself in a corner here.
Certainly, Dave and Perry own the copyright to this. I conceeded that point
many a time.
 
> > As far as copyright is concerned, while we are just a "mailing list" we can
> > also be thought as an organization.  We are "organized" and our address is
> > only on the internet.  The method of organization is anarchy.  None the less
> > we aren't any less of an organization than any other.  We just don't operate
> > in the same way IBM or MicroSoft, or EFF or EPIC does.  Does that mean we
> > can't copyright stuff in the cypherpunks name?  I don't know, I'm not a lawyer
> > and I agree with you that it probably wouldn't hold true infront of a 
> > copyright judge or a copyright lawyer.  None the less, it was put there for
> > effect and it did its job for effect, not for copyright.
> 
> The main problem is one of taste. If I attached a Cypherpunks
> copyright on my latest video, "Debbie Does Fort Meade," folks here
> might be upset. (I'm not saying Arsen's thing was all that
> serious--most likely the essay was read by exactly 7 people, 6 of whom
> have forgotten it, and 1 of whom is wondering why his mail to the
> incorrect address "cypherpunks@toad.com" is going unanswered.)

What's wrong with "cypherpunks@toad.com?"  I certainly send messages to that
address, and get replies, even if I write from a different machine because
most folks will do a cc:cypherpunks to a reply, so their reply goes to both
cypherpunks and the email address of the person they're responding to.

I certainly wouldn't be upset about Debbie Does Fort Meade. :-)  Nonetheless
it was a speech given by two cypherpunks.  If someone in an organization does
something you dislike, it doesn't pull him out of that organization necessarily
and again, the transcript was labeled "Crypto-anarchy" with a blurb about
"cypherpunks Perry Metzger & Dave Mandl" at least that was on the flyer which
announced the meeting.

I disagree that we shouldn't put copyright notices on future diskettes
simply because of appearances which I mentioned in the post to Perry.  I
strongly feel that putting a shitty looking diskette with out making it look
professional will hurt more than help.  As you've said, since we're not quite
that organized, we are shielded from some government problems, but putting
a copyright notice in the cypherpunks name doesn't really expose us to
any problems as there is no real organization to the cypherpunks.

We can certainly explore this point further.
 
> Again, I congratulate Arsen for his intitiative. I don't cotten to his
> denunciation of us a few days for somehow failing him, though. The job
> of an editor is not an easy one; it's a lot more than just announcing
> a project and then waiting for others to finish the work. (This
> apprach rarely works even when _money_ is offered, let alone when the
> work is for free, etc.)
> 
> I've spent entirely too much time writing articles for Cyphepunks, so
> I am bemused to see charges that Cypherpunks are not doing enough.

I agree that you've done lots and I've done some, and others have pitched
in.  But out of all the 700 cpunx on the list or whatever majordomo will
report, what percetange have sat on our asses and done nothing?  If you
have written and worked, I do not believe that you would think my diatribes
were aimed at you.  Granted I did mention your name, but I did not imply
you were not doing enough.  I stated that you were "unable" to help, and
that was in the context of the PC Expo project.  That doesn't reflect any
other work you've done for other projects.

Anyway, I was damned stressed out and am sure that when others will scrutinize
the whole disk, byte for byte, and my actions they may find other glitches.
If I have put you on the spot, it was not intentional.  I'm still a bit
burned out from that two day marathon of completing the disk.  I was far
more concerned with getting more folks to get off their asses and do something
than pointing the finger at others for my shortcommings.

I DO hope that all "bugs" (be they software, or wetware) involved in this
project won't hurt future projects.  Perhaps by the time the next Expo will
occur, you'd have finished the FAQ and it would be useful for it.  Too bad
Dickweiler turned psycopath before finishing a decent FAQ.

One word of advice for the future my droogs:  If you write something spiffy,
please consider allowing me and anyone else who might do an Expo raid to use
your articles.  And perhaps we can write more magazine style articles than
just argue over the finer points of a thread.  I can include threads, yes,
but there are always imbeciles who have qualms about having their words
appear elsewhere.  I don't agree with them, but I have to respect their
wishes.  If you'd ease up a bit, your words will do a far greater service.

And for the rest of you, find out if there's any Expos around your town and
join in the raids.  I'll be glad to help you put together a disk, etc.  Even
if your town doesn't have Expos, see if you could give out the disks to
local user groups, or organizations who would be interested, but may not
be aware of PGP et al.