From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 94 10:26:29 PDT
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Trashing the list? What motivates people?
In-Reply-To: <199407091535.KAA04155@zoom.bga.com>
Message-ID: <199407091726.KAA12977@netcom5.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



This list is a community. I've avoided commenting on Jim Choate's
flames and "never let go of an argument" style, but he is increasing
his denunciation of the list, so I will comment.

Jim Choate writes:


> My main rationale is that while I see lots of people making suggestions I dont
> see any of them actually carrying it out. In the whole time I have been on 
> this list I have *never* seen referals to the newsgroups. I have seen a 
> general trend to repost this material so that people simply have it right 
> then and there instead of having to send a sub-group  roaming around looking
> for it. Seems a much more labor saving system.

If you have "*never*" seen referrals to the newsgroups, then you must
be not reading much of what gets posted here. I, for one, have many
dozens of time (maybe hundreds of times, since 1992) referred to
articles in sci.crypt, talk.politics.crypto, alt.security.pgp, etc.

(Including some that I wrote for those groups.)

Anyone who claims that the newsgroups never get discussed, and then
decides that all 500 subscribers simply must see a bunch of articles
on random number generators--a topic we have discussed a dozen
times--is clearly grinding an axe. Lashing out at the list as being
full of good-for-nothings simply because of complaints about these
articles is absurd.

As for the first point, that many suggestions are made but then not
carried out, this is the nature of all discussion groups I've ever
seen. After all, we're not being *paid* to do all this. We're not
organized into teams, and so on.

And despite this, impressive progress has been made:

* Remailers. Cypherpunks remailers with new features, more sites. This
is clearly the cutting edge of remailers, more so even than Julf's
site. (Cyphepunks remailers are distributed, instantiable by almost
anyone, are adding new features, etc. Julf's site remains singular,
and has not added major features in a long time.)

* Several list members are central to the development of PGP. 

* SecureDrive, CurveEncrypt, and other crypto programs are tied to
various list members.

* Experiments with digital money have been underway...the lack of
concrete progress owes more to general problems with such things than
on lack of effort. (Pr0duct Cypher, Matt Thomlinson, others.)

* Although we can't always claim everyone as a member, such people as
Whit Diffie, Phil Zimmermann, Bruce Schneier, Matt Blaze, Phiber
Optik, and Jim Bidzos have attended our meetings. Some of them are
list subscribers, etc. The 500+ subscribers included some of the
best-known cryptologists outside the NSA. (And maybe inside?)

* The role of Cypherpunks has been manifold: practical work on
remailers, tools, digital money....education and
discussion....analysis of new protocols, etc. (For example, at today's
meeting the focus is on "swIPe," an important new system written by
John Ionannaddis (sp?), Phil Karn, etc.--I hope I got the credit right.)


I could go on, but I won't. Given that I can't recall Jim Choate being
involved in any of these projects, or giving us insightful analyses of
trends, developments, and technical details, I don't think he's in a
position to condemn the rest of the list.

People who lash out at the list, calling the list a place for people
who never do anything, are revealing their own failures of
imagination.

I can't see why they choose to remain on the list if they despise it
that much.


--Tim May


-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
"National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."