From: Jason W Solinsky <solman@MIT.EDU>
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 94 21:18:36 PDT
To: jamesd@netcom.com (James A. Donald)
Subject: Re: Voluntary Governments?
In-Reply-To: <199408220349.UAA08513@netcom15.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <9408220418.AA09466@ua.MIT.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> I wrote:
> > > Governments are in the business of violence.
> 
> Jason W Solinsky writes
> > A government is something that makes laws, enforces laws and punishes
> > offenders. I don't see why guns would determine whether or not something
> > is a government.
> 
> > > And if I wish to conduct business in a shopping mall, either as customer
> > > or shopkeeper, I have to abide by the mall rules.  This does not
> > > make the mall a government.
> 
> > Why not?
> 
> Because if you fail to obey the mall rules you will get thrown out.
> (Possibly by men with guns.)
> 
> If you fail to obey the government rules men with guns will come
> and kill you, imprison you, or take away your property at gunpoint.

Assuming the language we are using is English, this is just plain wrong.
Government has nothing to do with throwing people into prison or using
guns. It is an entity that exercises authority. Or an entity that enforces
laws. I understand that you feel strongly that certain types of punishment
are inappropriate. Fine, but that doesn't change the language. 

> That is why the shopping mall is not a government and that is
> why your "cyberspace governments" are not governments, they
> are private escrow agencies.

They can take away your personal property by force and they are not
governments? Why not?

> It is not rules and enforcement that make a government a
> government - every organization, every group of people, have
> rules and enforcement, usually informal, sometimes formal.

Well I know my definition of government and I know websters definition of
government, but this is the first I've heard of defining government by the
force it weilds. I guess all I have to do is buy a gun if I want to start a
government.

> It is killing, violence, and extortion that make government
> organizations different from non government organizations.

I'm curious were it is you got your definition. I looked around for it, but
I just couldn't find it.

JWS