From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 07:20:03 +0800
To: blanc <blancw@accessone.com>
Subject: more RANTING about NSA-friendly cpunks
In-Reply-To: <01BAEB69.A2BB7E80@blancw.accessone.com>
Message-ID: <199601262011.MAA17408@netcom16.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



BW:
>Actually, Vlad is has a remote point. =20

ah, thanks for the ringing endorsement.

>When certain activities are described as being "illegal" it lends to the =
>laws surrounding them an air of legitimacy, even though most anyone on =
>this list who refers to them in that way understands that they are =
>phrasing their words in terms of how these actions are =
>perceived/categorized by the lawmakers, not by the cpunks.

hence my advice: if one talks about these laws, at least insert the
caveat and reminder: we think they are bogus, we are waiting for
someone to challenge them, we doubt a court would uphold a ban
on export of "crypto hooks" or "signing foreign crypto code", and
at least we'd be interested in the court fight, and probably support
whoever tried.

do you see I am not asking anyone to be crucified here? I'm merely
asking cpunks to emphasize the attitudes that are actually serving
the "spread the crypto" agenda!!

>Yet you must understand, Vlad:  you aren't going to figure out how to =
>deal with a looming threat like ITAR simply by being nonchalant & =
>devil-may-care.

@#$%^&*!!! you miss the point. words like "a looming threat like the
ITAR" again play into the hands of the NSA. if you think the law
is illegitimate, use something like, "the silly bureacratese of the
ITAR" or something similar. *you* give away your own power to a law
whenever *you* believe it is a significant factor in your life. 

what is the worst that has happened to anyone from the "looming threat
of the ITAR" for illegal *crypto*export*?? a visit by the NSA men in 
black?? what are the supposed teeth that are preventing from anyone
from even challenging the algorithm sections of the ITAR??

has anyone *tried* just ignoring the ITAR wrt crypto and seeing what 
would happen? the gubbermint blindly thinks that cyberspace will 
inevitably bring the wrath of four horsemen of the infocalypse, but aren't we
equally as comic in assuming that violating the ITAR crypto sections
will inevitably bring the 4 horsemen of the NSA??

(please do NOT give me examples of how drug-dealer-x or arms-smuggler-y
got a bazillion years in prison for violating the ITAR-- obviously you
would have completely missed my point: I'm talking about the *crypto*
sections of the ITAR!!)

 I mean, what if somebody made a big show of OPENLY AND
FLAGRANTLY VIOLATING THE ITAR? *nothing* such as this has ever happened.
its exactly what we need. (I am thinking more of something on the corporate
level, not individual level). all the sheep on this list would cringe in
horror at my suggestion, but can you *prove* that something bad would
happen to you? do you really think the bogeyman is going to get you if
you do so? actions speak louder than words...

>   The fact that some people (lawyers) know what =
>corporations & individuals are facing if they try to import or export =
>"illegal" substances like abstract code, and the fact that some people =
>(programmers) discuss the issues openly, does not mean that they are =
>headed in the direction of submission to the given obstacles.  =20

you don't understand this point I have repeatedly reiterated. 
DISCUSSING THE ISSUE AMOUNTS TO SUBMISSION.  the moment that you
even THINK about the problem, the law is doing exactly what it was
*designed* to do, *succeeding* in dampening something that we supposedly
*claim* can't and shouldn't be dampened? how is it dampened? BY OURSELVES!!!

>It just means that they're thinking through the problem, to clarify just =
>what the situation is, to give conscious consideration to what anyone =
>might have to deal with as a consequence of their decisions (to do what =
>they will regardless of the NSA's perceptions).

if people actually did what they wanted "regardless of the NSA's perceptions",
then we would have exactly what we are always whining for, and that's
exactly what I'm advocating.  but in fact what everyone is doing is
paying close attention to what how the NSA would view some supposed
action, taking the NSA's opinion on the ITAR as *law* (gosh, when did
the NSA get the authority to make/interpret/enforce laws?) and backing
off from anything.

there are THREE SOLID WAYS that crypto could be spread like widfire
RIGHT NOW but I have seen them argued against by people on the list
on the basis that "the NSA wouldn't approve". well, SCREW THE NSA!!!
do you want to protect the NSA or DON'T YOU???

1. CRYPTO HOOKS into legitimate crypto software. the companies
export the software to their hearts content and challenge the government
in court if prevented.

2. SIGNING FOREIGN CODE. the fact that MS doesn't want to even sign
foreign implementations of code for fear of some supposed NSA
disapproval is atrocious spinelessness.

3. IMPORTING THE CRYPTO SOFTWARE. TCM argues that "this would quickly
be outlawed if not already illegal". oh yeah? says who? don't you think
there would be a pretty spectacular FIGHT over this?

yet I have seen cpunks endlessly argue against all these points, when
they are exactly what we have the most chance of winning, imho.
the best way, which because everyone has been successfully conditioned
to do exactly what the NSA wants:

4. JUST WRITE WHATEVER THE HELL CODE YOU WANT, AND SEND IT WHEREVER THE
HELL YOU WANT.

don't give me any *crap* about how NASTY THINGS WILL BEFALL YOU if you
do any of the above. what happened to PRZ??? NOTHING. it is possible that
PRZ may have been able to NEVER EVEN HIRE A LAWYER if he wanted to, and
emerged unscathed from the last situation. 

there is NO PRECEDENT for
anything happening to ANYONE for trying any of the above things, and
until someone tries them, DO NOT ARGUE THEY CANNOT BE DONE, or that
NASTY AND UNSPEAKABLE THINGS BEFALL THOSE WHO TRY, unless you
want to be given medals of honor by the NSA for helping them out!!
(again, I do not count "GOVERNMENT MOUNTS AN INVESTIGATION" as anything
harmful!!! please feel free to disagree with me!! perhaps if you are
a frail entity, indeed the mere idea that government agents are thinking
about you can cause you to have a nervous breakdown!!!)

I am waiting for some company with some balls to do any of this. MS, in all
their amazing marketplace aggression, apparently believes that you don't
ever fight the government. a pity. that's the most important battle.