From: olmur@dwarf.bb.bawue.de (Olmur)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 05:19:33 +0800
To: lull@acm.org (John Lull)
Subject: Re: "German service cuts Net access" (to Santa Cruz)
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960128115634.00977b14@panix.com>
Message-ID: <m0tgnaN-0006FvC@dwarf>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>>>>> "John" Lull <lull@acm.org> writes:

John> On Sun, 28 Jan 1996 21:41 +0100 (MET), Olmur wrote:
>> It's illegal in Germany to publish material denying the holocaust.
>> In the same moment this guy sent his book (?) per snail-mail from
>> Canada to Germany he commited a crime here in Germany.

John> How pray tell is a person in Canada supposed to know that?  I
John> (in the US) certainly had no idea Germany had such a law.

Not knowing a law doesn't mean that I'm not liable for breaking it.


John> Are you saying that, if I ran a bookstore, and accepted
John> international mail orders, I would have to screen every order to
John> ensure I did not ship something offensive to the German
John> government?

Denying the holocaust is not 'something offensive to the German
government' but something that hurts the feeling of the people whose
relatives were murdered by the Nazis.

Free speech ends where other people can reasonable claim that their
feelings are badly hurt.


John> And if I did fill such an order, and without ever having set
John> foot in Germany, I could be arrested on my next trip to Europe,
John> extradited to Germany, and imprisoned for doing something that
John> is constitutionally protected in the US?

Is it constitutionally protected in US to knowingly hurt other
people's feelings and to trample on graves?????


John> Alternatively, what if I were to post to usenet a message
John> denying the Holocaust, and one person in Germany retrieved that
John> message.  Would I then be subject to arrest and extradition to
John> Germany?

Interesting question.  I assume from a formal standpointyou were, but
practically it might not be possible to proof that you sent the
message.


John> Mike Duvos wrote in another message:

>> It is interesting to note that there is no specific law prohibiting
>> free speech for Holocaust Agnostics in Germany. The actual laws
>> under which such cases are prosecuted are libel laws, which have
>> been liberally interpreted to mean that one may not "libel"
>> deceased Jews as a class or their memory in the minds of their
>> surviving relatives.

John> If in fact this is merely a judicial interpretation of an
John> apparently unrelated law, it just plain ridiculous to expect
John> people in other countries to be aware of it.

Mike's information is old.  Meanwhile it's explicitely forbidden to
deny the holocaust.


John> If this is really what Germany wants, then it sounds like time
John> to totally cut Germany off from the internet, simply in self
John> preservation.  No one can reasonably be expected to research
John> even the clearly-written laws worldwide that might conceivably
John> apply in such cases, much less far-fetched judicial
John> interpretations of such laws.

As said above: the law is explicite.  When I trade with another
country of course I have to obey this country's laws.  I mean if I
visit US I have to obey US-law.  If I know it or not.  If you visit
Germany, you have to obey German law.  If you know it or not.  The
same is with trade.


John> Olmur continued:

>> I don't think it's astonishing that Denmark imprissoned this guy
>> and transported him to Germany.  It's a normal thing that one
>> country imprisons a criminal another country is searching and the
>> delivers him/her to the country in question.

John> I, on the other hand, find this QUITE astonishing.  His actions
John> were legal in both Canada and Denmark (probably everywhere in
John> the world except Germany), and he did nothing in Germany.

He imported illegal stuff into Germany.  If I import weapons to US
without a licence I might be imprisoned on my next visit there, too.


Due to our history publishing NAZI-propaganda is forbidden in Germany.
The big majority in Germany agrees with this view, that
NAZI-propaganda doesn't fall under 'free speech'. Some neo-NAZIs
publish their books in other countries and then illegally transfer
them to Germany.

BTW, many European countries forbid publishing NAZI-propaganda.  And
as far as I know Denmark plans to change their law, too.


John> Of course, I find the US actions in kidnapping people in other
John> countries quite indefensible also, but at least in those cases
John> the persons involved clearly knew they were violating at least
John> US law, and in most cases were violating their local laws as
John> well.

How do you know that they know?  How do you know that the guy in
question didn't know?


Olmur
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